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Thread: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

  1. #11
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by doctors11 View Post
    Doesn't the Luna fit this need?

    In general I completely agree with you. I've been looking for high quality passive speakers for my desktop with a beautiful midrange and detailed highs in a small package. I'm not worried about the low end as I'm planning on adding a sub. There certainly aren't many of them. But it sounds like the Luna might be the perfect answer for you. Does the 85 db sensitivity worry you?

    All of everyone's responses have really helped me organize my thoughts better. I appreciate your input everyone!!

    Hey Doc! The Lunas look like a great speaker for their application! I can only imagine how crazy challenging it must have been to develop those little speakers (how many woofer trials?) The Lunas are a different category of speaker than what I'm thinking of.

    (I'm going to try to explain my thoughts in the post below.)
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-14-2020 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Clarify my thinking

  2. #12
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Okay, I'm more awake now! Ha!

    Let me take a stab at categorizing the Ascend speakers arbitrarily. I'm not doing this to pick on Ascend (my favorite speaker company by FAR). I'm just most familiar with Ascend. And I'm doing this as a commentary on the speaker markets (what speaker buyers are demanding). I think Ascend's lineup of speakers is simply a reflection of what people are paying for. So, if I'm picking on anyone, it's YOU BUYERS out there! lol



    1. NO SUB NECESSARY (but won't give you the deepest bass that a sub can)

    Sierra Towers
    Sierra Bookshelf (the bigger ones)


    2. NEED A SUB (if you want sub bass)

    Signature Editions
    Sierra Lunas


    Now, some commentary. In both categories (sub and subless), I have arranged the speakers from loudest to quietest. I want to make some observations.

    1. The "no sub necessary" speakers can be a great bang-for-your-buck especially if you plan on not getting a subwoofer. Good subs cost money too. And if you want your speaker to give you satisfying bass, I think you'll get a good bang for your buck with category 1. What do you give up? What is the compromise? For the bookshelf speakers, they don't play as loud as the tower speakers. And the biggest compromise, IMO, is the lack of subwoofer(s). BUT, this category certainly needs to exist no doubt. Many can't accommodate subs in their living situations (apartment, WAF, space, the desire for simplicity, etc)

    2. The "need a sub" speakers. You'll notice in this category that as the sound quality goes up, the speaker size goes down (the speakers are getting smaller with more spousal acceptance or lifestyle acceptance factor at play). So, the speakers in this category that have the nicest cabinets and drivers are the smaller speakers. This means that as the speaker quality increases, the loudness decreases.

    This is inverted from category 1.

    Category 1: As sound quality goes up, loudness goes UP. (bigger speakers = more output)
    Category 2: As sound quality goes up, loudness goes DOWN. (you people and your lifestyle speakers) lol

    Now, I said all that above to try to illustrate what I feel is the missing category. Let me make new categories here:

    1. NO SUB NECESSARY
    2. OPTIMIZED FOR SUBS <----- not small speakers!!!
    3. LIFESTYLE (small speakers)

    It just seems that the speaker-buying crowds are ignoring subwoofer optimized unless they're buying either horn speakers, budget speakers, or small speakers. In my opinion, this is a shame. Speakers like the Sierras sound much better for home theater, but we're still in the era of paying for your bass twice. There just doesn't seem to be as much demand for speakers that play loud, have super clarity, and are designed to expect subwoofers. I can't wait for this market to emerge (if ever). Because if it does, to me, this will truly be the best bang for your buck high quality category of speakers in the universe.

    Is this all just a hangover from the "subwoofers are evil" era?? If so, I wish it would go away.

    And again, there may be something I'm misunderstanding about all of this on a technical level or pricing level or demand level or level level. ....too many variables...

    And again, I'm not poo pooing the small speakers and speakers that have a lot of bass. I definitely see how we (the audio community) NEED those categories. My Sierra-2EX speakers sound so sweet to my ears in this small apartment. And their bass is astonishing. If I could get away with a sub.... evil grin.

    All that was said, keep in mind, is coming from a non-technical person. It could ALL be completely and utterly WWRROOOOONNNGGGGGGG... just my opinions/observations. Take it for what you will.
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-14-2020 at 12:28 PM. Reason: I'm editing to not be missunderstood.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I get what you're saying and I don't think you're crazy. The question for Dave would be whether he feels that in the S2EX, where bass AND midrange were improved, does he imagine a driver where midrange on the S2EX would be even better at the expense of bass extension - where the sub take over. I am not sure that sacrificing ~35Hz-80Hz extension would ever buy you better midrange. But I am not a speaker designer. But I certainly get the point. FYI, I currently own the S2EXs, RAAL Towers, and RAAL Horizon.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Furthermore, the optimum product would be sealed (IMO).

  5. #15
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by mjlav View Post
    I get what you're saying and I don't think you're crazy. The question for Dave would be whether he feels that in the S2EX, where bass AND midrange were improved, does he imagine a driver where midrange on the S2EX would be even better at the expense of bass extension - where the sub take over. I am not sure that sacrificing ~35Hz-80Hz extension would ever buy you better midrange. But I am not a speaker designer. But I certainly get the point. FYI, I currently own the S2EXs, RAAL Towers, and RAAL Horizon.
    Sorry for the really long-winded posts. I tried to make them shorter but I wanted to make sure that people really understand where I'm coming from.

    You have a great point! I don't know, either. I'm going off of a set of intuitive assumptions here.

    1. Speaker drivers are designed to meet specific targets like everything else that's engineered. (The 2EX woofers don't reach down that low by accident)

    2. There are compromises that must be made to reach those targets.

    And I know you know that. My understanding is that to maximize bass extension, you have to give up
    sensitivity, and that a driver that is optimal for low bass tends to be different from a driver that is
    optimized for mid range. (Isn't a mid range driver typically lighter?) That's as far as my intuition goes. On top of this, I don't know if sealing the cabinet can play a part in this, or if this would just cost the speaker too much efficiency. I'm over my head on that one.

    Does the Sierra 2EX driver represent a technological advancement that somehow does away with the need for specializing drivers to optimize specific ranges? I doubt it. No doubt it is better than the Sierra-2 woofer in the midrange, but I can only imagine what can now be accomplished if SEAS focused on a full size driver that only has to extend down to 60hz or so. What kind of midrange and output performance could we get then? I have no idea! But judging by the fact that they got the 2EX woofer to do THAT? It would probably be INSANE. And, if we can start to get back some efficiency in the speaker (from giving up bass), that would be a good thing seeing as how blockbuster movies keep getting more and more dynamic (or are they just louder? loudness wars affected movies yet?)

    Music's in the midrange. Life is in the dynamics. Bass is in the subwoofer. LOL Ho boy. Ignore that sentence. I'm crazy.
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-14-2020 at 01:51 PM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimb View Post
    Furthermore, the optimum product would be sealed (IMO).
    Hey! If you know more about this, would you mind explaining it to me? I understand that sealing a speaker can help increase cone control. But I don't know how this would effect the low end. Would we be giving up too much output at 60 or 65hz if we sealed it? This is over my understanding right now. And could you use a port, but then plug the port later and get a similar effect? What say you Jimb?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I believe Dave has made custom bookshelf speakers using the midrange driver from the tower.
    -curtis

  8. #18
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    I believe Dave has made custom bookshelf speakers using the midrange driver from the tower.
    I can believe it! Although I'm not sure if those midranges can blend low enough (80hz). I bet those would be interesting, no doubt.

    I found a speaker. Paradigm Persona B. 89db sensitivity anechoic. +/-2db @ 60hz. 7 inch mid-woofer.
    Impedance: "Compatible with 8 ohm". Whatever that means. lol "Sure.... it'll work.... (runs the other way)"

    Only $3500 each!! What a steal!! Can Dave beat this Goliath? Oh man I'm so cheesy.
    I wouldn't be too surprised if the RAALs already beat it! But, I like those base specs. Looks like the CBMs! (I know that a speaker is much more than specs of course)

  9. #19
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I have another theory about why this "category" of speaker is so rare.

    I've been looking at this whole problem through idealistic eyes. But, we're living in the real world and have to deal with real people.

    Most people buying speakers aren't OCD perfectionistic audio nerds like me!

    Most people just want what they can intuitively understand. More bass. More clarity. And trust in the company/designer.

    And there's nothing wrong with that.

    So how do you sell a lot of a single line of speakers? Make sure they appeal to the widest audience possible. This ensures low prices. No way around it. Gotta have enough bass. Gotta be loud enough. And if I have deep pockets, gotta be the best you got. But if my wife yells at me, gotta be the smallest you got.

    Does the average speaker buyer even know about the existence of the mid range? I didn't when I first bought the Sierra Towers (Nrt). I just bought them because I could afford them and because I trust the designer (still do, obviously). And I don't regret that purchase one bit! Still enjoying them after many years.

    I think for the speaker "category" I'm thinking of to exist:

    1. It actually needs to be a GOOD IDEA. (may not be)
    2. It needs to be technically possible (no technical or price barriers).
    3. Education for the average consumer needs to happen somewhere.
    4. After being educated, people still have to want it and be sure of it.
    5. ...and they still have to have no technical barriers or limitations (subwoofer).

    This might be too tall an order to happen. We can't even get many audio companies to stop being deceptive with their specs.

    So, ASSUMING that we can get enough people to want this kind of speaker, I need to establish numbers 1 and 2.

    1. Is it ACTUALLY a good idea from an acoustic or technical standpoint? Will the speaker sound bad?
    2. Are there pricing or technical limitations to this kind of speaker?
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-15-2020 at 10:13 AM. Reason: MOAR!!!

  10. #20
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I want to say THANK YOU so much, guys, for hanging with me in this discussion. My posts are long walls of text and I spend a while trying to edit them to make them shorter. Being concise is something I'm working on, but I'm not the best at. Thanks again.

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