The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

[j0nnyfive]

You're thinking something like this:

Salk Supercharged Song Surround

But maybe cheaper, and with even less bass. That'd be this:

The Mini Philharmonitor

Unfortunately for everyone else, Dennis tells me I bought the very last pair of Mini Phils ever. They sound similar to S2s, just with less low-end reach. Unfortunately, the price really was too good to be true and Dennis's speaker business went under.

Well, not exactly like those speakers, although both of those speakers look very nice and I hear that Mr. Murphy is a great designer. The first speaker produces more bass than I'm thinking is needed. The other speaker is smaller than what I'm thinking of (giving up efficiency maybe).

And this is my point. Either there is a hole in the market(demand), or there is a hole in my brain(technical issues) and I don't understand something. I don't understand why it seems like a category of speaker is missing.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have these websites selling these large horn-loaded speakers touting the importance of having plenty of headroom for wide dynamic swings in movies. I get that. Been there, done that. The problem I have with horns is listeners fatigue, a very "forward" sound, and an overall lack of detail compared to speakers like Sierras. The horn speakers I'm thinking of seem to be designed for home theater use (optimized for 80hz crossovers, etc). I really like that aspect to them.

But I think speakers like Sierras sound MUCH BETTER for home theater, but this side of the audio market seems to be filled with people who hate subwoofers and movies. lol (kidding) So, each speaker, including bookshelf speakers, are made to be run full range without subwoofers (to meet demand, of course).

I patiently await the emergence of a large enough demand for simple 2-way speakers that have upscale drivers (like RAAL) and are optimized for the typical 80hz crossover in home theater. Something like the CBMs, but bamboo, RAAL, awesome midbass, and all that. Of course, there would have to be demand. It just may be too "niche". Something with higher sensitivity (88db? 89db? 90db?), but more than sensitivity, midrange optimization. Should it be sealed? I don't know these things. I'm a simple man with simple thoughts. I play the kazoo.

C'mon people! We should all be the same and want the same things! Unity! How dare you people be different in your preferences and tastes!?

(Again, I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with full range bookshelf speakers. I really love my Sierra 2EXs) (...and please don't misinterpret my silliness as me being upset or anything. If you met me in real life, you'd understand. I've been described as laid-back but kinda goofy. I appreciate this discussion... helps me keep my mind off of more serious things in the world.)

[doctors11]

Doesn't the Luna fit this need?

In general I completely agree with you. I've been looking for high quality passive speakers for my desktop with a beautiful midrange and detailed highs in a small package. I'm not worried about the low end as I'm planning on adding a sub. There certainly aren't many of them. But it sounds like the Luna might be the perfect answer for you. Does the 85 db sensitivity worry you?

[j0nnyfive]

Doesn't the Luna fit this need?

In general I completely agree with you. I've been looking for high quality passive speakers for my desktop with a beautiful midrange and detailed highs in a small package. I'm not worried about the low end as I'm planning on adding a sub. There certainly aren't many of them. But it sounds like the Luna might be the perfect answer for you. Does the 85 db sensitivity worry you?

All of everyone's responses have really helped me organize my thoughts better. I appreciate your input everyone!!

Hey Doc! The Lunas look like a great speaker for their application! I can only imagine how crazy challenging it must have been to develop those little speakers (how many woofer trials?) The Lunas are a different category of speaker than what I'm thinking of.

(I'm going to try to explain my thoughts in the post below.)

[j0nnyfive]

Okay, I'm more awake now! Ha!

Let me take a stab at categorizing the Ascend speakers arbitrarily. I'm not doing this to pick on Ascend (my favorite speaker company by FAR). I'm just most familiar with Ascend. And I'm doing this as a commentary on the speaker markets (what speaker buyers are demanding). I think Ascend's lineup of speakers is simply a reflection of what people are paying for. So, if I'm picking on anyone, it's YOU BUYERS out there! lol



1. NO SUB NECESSARY (but won't give you the deepest bass that a sub can)

Sierra Towers
Sierra Bookshelf (the bigger ones)


2. NEED A SUB (if you want sub bass)

Signature Editions
Sierra Lunas


Now, some commentary. In both categories (sub and subless), I have arranged the speakers from loudest to quietest. I want to make some observations.

1. The "no sub necessary" speakers can be a great bang-for-your-buck especially if you plan on not getting a subwoofer. Good subs cost money too. And if you want your speaker to give you satisfying bass, I think you'll get a good bang for your buck with category 1. What do you give up? What is the compromise? For the bookshelf speakers, they don't play as loud as the tower speakers. And the biggest compromise, IMO, is the lack of subwoofer(s). BUT, this category certainly needs to exist no doubt. Many can't accommodate subs in their living situations (apartment, WAF, space, the desire for simplicity, etc)

2. The "need a sub" speakers. You'll notice in this category that as the sound quality goes up, the speaker size goes down (the speakers are getting smaller with more spousal acceptance or lifestyle acceptance factor at play). So, the speakers in this category that have the nicest cabinets and drivers are the smaller speakers. This means that as the speaker quality increases, the loudness decreases.

This is inverted from category 1.

Category 1: As sound quality goes up, loudness goes UP. (bigger speakers = more output)
Category 2: As sound quality goes up, loudness goes DOWN. (you people and your lifestyle speakers) lol

Now, I said all that above to try to illustrate what I feel is the missing category. Let me make new categories here:

1. NO SUB NECESSARY
2. OPTIMIZED FOR SUBS <----- not small speakers!!!
3. LIFESTYLE (small speakers)

It just seems that the speaker-buying crowds are ignoring subwoofer optimized unless they're buying either horn speakers, budget speakers, or small speakers. In my opinion, this is a shame. Speakers like the Sierras sound much better for home theater, but we're still in the era of paying for your bass twice. There just doesn't seem to be as much demand for speakers that play loud, have super clarity, and are designed to expect subwoofers. I can't wait for this market to emerge (if ever). Because if it does, to me, this will truly be the best bang for your buck high quality category of speakers in the universe.

Is this all just a hangover from the "subwoofers are evil" era?? If so, I wish it would go away.

And again, there may be something I'm misunderstanding about all of this on a technical level or pricing level or demand level or level level. ....too many variables...

And again, I'm not poo pooing the small speakers and speakers that have a lot of bass. I definitely see how we (the audio community) NEED those categories. My Sierra-2EX speakers sound so sweet to my ears in this small apartment. And their bass is astonishing. If I could get away with a sub.... evil grin.

All that was said, keep in mind, is coming from a non-technical person. It could ALL be completely and utterly WWRROOOOONNNGGGGGGG... just my opinions/observations. Take it for what you will.

[mjlav]

I get what you're saying and I don't think you're crazy. The question for Dave would be whether he feels that in the S2EX, where bass AND midrange were improved, does he imagine a driver where midrange on the S2EX would be even better at the expense of bass extension - where the sub take over. I am not sure that sacrificing ~35Hz-80Hz extension would ever buy you better midrange. But I am not a speaker designer. But I certainly get the point. FYI, I currently own the S2EXs, RAAL Towers, and RAAL Horizon.

[jimb]

Furthermore, the optimum product would be sealed (IMO).

[j0nnyfive]

Furthermore, the optimum product would be sealed (IMO).

Hey! If you know more about this, would you mind explaining it to me? I understand that sealing a speaker can help increase cone control. But I don't know how this would effect the low end. Would we be giving up too much output at 60 or 65hz if we sealed it? This is over my understanding right now. And could you use a port, but then plug the port later and get a similar effect? What say you Jimb?

[j0nnyfive]

I get what you're saying and I don't think you're crazy. The question for Dave would be whether he feels that in the S2EX, where bass AND midrange were improved, does he imagine a driver where midrange on the S2EX would be even better at the expense of bass extension - where the sub take over. I am not sure that sacrificing ~35Hz-80Hz extension would ever buy you better midrange. But I am not a speaker designer. But I certainly get the point. FYI, I currently own the S2EXs, RAAL Towers, and RAAL Horizon.

Sorry for the really long-winded posts. I tried to make them shorter but I wanted to make sure that people really understand where I'm coming from.

You have a great point! I don't know, either. I'm going off of a set of intuitive assumptions here.

1. Speaker drivers are designed to meet specific targets like everything else that's engineered. (The 2EX woofers don't reach down that low by accident)

2. There are compromises that must be made to reach those targets.

And I know you know that. My understanding is that to maximize bass extension, you have to give up
sensitivity, and that a driver that is optimal for low bass tends to be different from a driver that is
optimized for mid range. (Isn't a mid range driver typically lighter?) That's as far as my intuition goes. On top of this, I don't know if sealing the cabinet can play a part in this, or if this would just cost the speaker too much efficiency. I'm over my head on that one.

Does the Sierra 2EX driver represent a technological advancement that somehow does away with the need for specializing drivers to optimize specific ranges? I doubt it. No doubt it is better than the Sierra-2 woofer in the midrange, but I can only imagine what can now be accomplished if SEAS focused on a full size driver that only has to extend down to 60hz or so. What kind of midrange and output performance could we get then? I have no idea! But judging by the fact that they got the 2EX woofer to do THAT? It would probably be INSANE. And, if we can start to get back some efficiency in the speaker (from giving up bass), that would be a good thing seeing as how blockbuster movies keep getting more and more dynamic (or are they just louder? loudness wars affected movies yet?)

Music's in the midrange. Life is in the dynamics. Bass is in the subwoofer. LOL Ho boy. Ignore that sentence. I'm crazy.