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Thread: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

  1. #1
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    May 2011
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    Default The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I may be wrong in my thinking (due to my lack of technical and sales experience), but I can't help but think that the audio industry is a bit "wonky".

    I'm not blaming the engineers and designers. If anyone is to blame, it's the buyers and maybe marketing departments(?) Or maybe it's me. Maybe it just takes me a long time to understand things.

    But to me, this seems so obvious.

    In my opinion, there should be an ENTIRE CATEGORY of high-end 2-way bookshelf speakers that emphasize midrange performance and efficiency over bass extension, and are expected to be used with nice subwoofers. It just seems to me that most speaker companies should have this category along side the other more full range speakers.

    Of course, I think there should still be "full range" speakers that don't need subs for people who just want simple setups or are heavily space-limited or budget-limited.

    It just seems like this is a completely missing category in this industry. The CBM-170 SE is the kind of speaker I'm thinking of, but with more "upscale" drivers (like RAAL) and enclosure materials (like Bamboo).

    This is taken from the CMT-340 SE sales page, but this makes sense to me in the context of bookshelf speakers with deep bass. I'm going to substitute the word "bookshelf" for the word "tower":

    " In a quality home theater system, subwoofers are required and reproduce low frequency information far superior to 99% of all (bookshelf) speakers. With a full range (bookshelf) speaker, why pay for bass twice and sacrifice the critical midrange and high frequency performance?"

    I don't know. Why? Why do other people not want high end 2-way bookshelf speakers that maximize mid-range clarity and efficiency? Is there some technical limitation that I'm not aware of? Is there some upper bass quality that can only be attained by making midbass drivers play as deep as possible? (again, I feel like I'm talking to the buyers/markets here. I know that Dave is limited to designing and building only what there is demand for.)

    Can someone help set me straight in my thinking? What am I missing? I do love my Sierra 2EX speakers (I'm not complaining at all about my speakers). But I'm running them without a subwoofer. When I get subwoofer(s) later, I know this subject will surface in my mind again. Are we all just stuck, paying for our bass twice, forever?

    Stay safe everybody.

    P.S. I know about the Luna, but it's a small speaker (different category).
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-12-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #2
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    May 2011
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    So, the post above is meant for YOU people out there who are buying speakers. Do you run bookshelf speakers and subwoofers? Am I alone in thinking the way I do? Would YOU buy a speaker with less bass, more midrange performance, and hopefully more efficiency? Or would this just not work well? Why or why not?

    Thanks!

    Edit: Again, I want to stress that I am not AGAINST full-range bookshelf speakers. They certainly have their place and a market. I'm just wondering why there doesn't seem to be a market for more bookshelf speakers like the CBMs that are limited in bass extension but focus more on midrange and maintaining high sensitivity (and also using RAAL and more "upscale" midwoofers). Where are you people? Am I alone?
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 04-12-2020 at 05:48 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I, too, imagine there should be a good market for a "bookshelf" or "satellite" that is high performance and optimized for 80 Hz crossover. That is, best performance given 4th order crossover at 80.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Thanks Jimb. Now that there are 2 of us, I can give them the go ahead for making T-Shirts for our new club. You think we can start a movement?

    I'm gonna go ahead and read about 4th order crossovers since I don't know what that is. lol See? I'm aware that I could be wrong because I don't know these things. I'm just going off of my own intuition that tells me that if a driver is super good at producing low bass... it probably isn't as good at midrange as it could have been otherwise. This might be totally wrong though. I know what I get when I assume. I've done it before.

    Now, I'm also aware that the 2EX is better at midrange than the 2 (from what I've read). So sometimes a better driver is a better driver all around, period.

    But, you know what I'm getting at. Exactly. High-end sound, optimized for your typical home theater crossover (80hz). With the best midrange it can muster. The best efficiency it can muster.

    Jimb, would you think it could be a sealed enclosure? Or would we lose too much? Thanks for helping me think about speakers and not the other things going on.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    You're thinking something like this:

    Salk Supercharged Song Surround

    But maybe cheaper, and with even less bass. That'd be this:

    The Mini Philharmonitor

    Unfortunately for everyone else, Dennis tells me I bought the very last pair of Mini Phils ever. They sound similar to S2s, just with less low-end reach. Unfortunately, the price really was too good to be true and Dennis's speaker business went under.
    Luna Duo V2 LR, Titan Horizon V2, and Rythmik L22 & L12 in HT, Sierra-LXs in study, S-2EXs and Duo V2 C in bedroom, S-1 NrTs in dining room, S-1s at work, HTM-200s in kitchen. Brother owns CMT-340s and dad has a pair of CBM-170s.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    SunByrne - I like your signature -- obviously :-)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    I bet it boils down to development costs and how many can potentially be sold.
    -curtis

  8. #8
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by SunByrne View Post
    You're thinking something like this:

    Salk Supercharged Song Surround

    But maybe cheaper, and with even less bass. That'd be this:

    The Mini Philharmonitor

    Unfortunately for everyone else, Dennis tells me I bought the very last pair of Mini Phils ever. They sound similar to S2s, just with less low-end reach. Unfortunately, the price really was too good to be true and Dennis's speaker business went under.

    Well, not exactly like those speakers, although both of those speakers look very nice and I hear that Mr. Murphy is a great designer. The first speaker produces more bass than I'm thinking is needed. The other speaker is smaller than what I'm thinking of (giving up efficiency maybe).

    And this is my point. Either there is a hole in the market(demand), or there is a hole in my brain(technical issues) and I don't understand something. I don't understand why it seems like a category of speaker is missing.

    At the other end of the spectrum, you have these websites selling these large horn-loaded speakers touting the importance of having plenty of headroom for wide dynamic swings in movies. I get that. Been there, done that. The problem I have with horns is listeners fatigue, a very "forward" sound, and an overall lack of detail compared to speakers like Sierras. The horn speakers I'm thinking of seem to be designed for home theater use (optimized for 80hz crossovers, etc). I really like that aspect to them.

    But I think speakers like Sierras sound MUCH BETTER for home theater, but this side of the audio market seems to be filled with people who hate subwoofers and movies. lol (kidding) So, each speaker, including bookshelf speakers, are made to be run full range without subwoofers (to meet demand, of course).

    I patiently await the emergence of a large enough demand for simple 2-way speakers that have upscale drivers (like RAAL) and are optimized for the typical 80hz crossover in home theater. Something like the CBMs, but bamboo, RAAL, awesome midbass, and all that. Of course, there would have to be demand. It just may be too "niche". Something with higher sensitivity (88db? 89db? 90db?), but more than sensitivity, midrange optimization. Should it be sealed? I don't know these things. I'm a simple man with simple thoughts. I play the kazoo.

    C'mon people! We should all be the same and want the same things! Unity! How dare you people be different in your preferences and tastes!?

    (Again, I want to stress that there is nothing wrong with full range bookshelf speakers. I really love my Sierra 2EXs) (...and please don't misinterpret my silliness as me being upset or anything. If you met me in real life, you'd understand. I've been described as laid-back but kinda goofy. I appreciate this discussion... helps me keep my mind off of more serious things in the world.)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    I bet it boils down to development costs and how many can potentially be sold.
    I'm sure that's it, Curtis. I'm trying to increase awareness and demand. I think I'm going to make some T-shirts and get some signs and protest at some speaker conventions. Wanna go? It's for a good cause. It'll be those conventions where the speakers are so exotic they look like alien space ships or something. It will make no sense whatsoever. Neither the speakers, nor the protest.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The audio industry still doesn't make sense to me...

    Doesn't the Luna fit this need?

    In general I completely agree with you. I've been looking for high quality passive speakers for my desktop with a beautiful midrange and detailed highs in a small package. I'm not worried about the low end as I'm planning on adding a sub. There certainly aren't many of them. But it sounds like the Luna might be the perfect answer for you. Does the 85 db sensitivity worry you?
    Last edited by doctors11; 04-13-2020 at 05:02 PM.

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