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Thread: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Hey guys! Not sure if people here are intrested more closer look to measured data.

    Amir at ASR has measured the Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel with high end Klippel NFS system. https://www.klippel.de/products/rd-s...d-scanner.html

    There was something to nag about which Ascend is hopefully going to respond, but also we can see how the horizontal 2-way MTM design is far from optimal as center channel.
    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.11797/

    It`s looking likely that the vertical LCR speakers will be shipped to test so i will keep you posted if this happens.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    This should be interesting...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    v
    Quote Originally Posted by ahender View Post
    This should be interesting...
    Indeed.....although I like that the ASR site has a focus on diverging from the mainstream magazine/web reviews that usually don't offer much measurements or details, but merely vague depictions of speaker performance. In my opinion, they have swung the pendulum far to the other direction on evaluations. Can't recommend this speaker? Why and what other speakers in the $300 range offer better performance? There, of course, will be compromises in any design at a lower price range. Many of the comments on ASR can get ridiculous......The good and the bad of the internet I guess.....

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    v

    Indeed.....although I like that the ASR site has a focus on diverging from the mainstream magazine/web reviews that usually don't offer much measurements or details, but merely vague depictions of speaker performance. In my opinion, they have swung the pendulum far to the other direction on evaluations. Can't recommend this speaker? Why and what other speakers in the $300 range offer better performance? There, of course, will be compromises in any design at a lower price range. Many of the comments on ASR can get ridiculous......The good and the bad of the internet I guess.....
    I have a friend who built a $50k HT in his attic about 8 years ago. I think it's about 800 sq. ft. with a very high ceiling. His speakers of choice: (3) SE-340s, (2) CBM-170s, and one very large HSU sub. No one complains about the quality of sound!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    The Sierra 2 measurements have just been posted: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.11813/

    Note that the Sierra 2 scores lower in their preference rating than the Pioneer BS22

    If you ask me, a little too much obsession with trying to use formulas to assign speaker ratings.

    I am curious to hear what Dave has to say about the accuracy of their measurements.
    Last edited by cel4145; 03-01-2020 at 12:57 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    If you read the review comments, the person doing the SE-340 testing does not even listen to the speaker set up as a center. His listening setup does not accommodate a center speaker. That is amazing!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Quote Originally Posted by ahender View Post
    If you read the review comments, the person doing the SE-340 testing does not even listen to the speaker set up as a center. His listening setup does not accommodate a center speaker. That is amazing!
    Sadly not where he measures the gear, for stereo pair yes. He has cinema gear somewhere else. In this case the measured data shows us certain things about the engineering of this product and it`s up to person to decide after listening does he like it or not. These should be used as tool to give more information.

    There is enough subjective reviews for speakers in internet. Why they are all so positive? Because you don´t bite the hand that feeds you. Many sites/magazines are run by advertisement money, you start to write negative reviews or saying too straight things the commercial income stops, company won´t send products for review again.

    Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable.

    The person reviewing the gear is electrical engineer who is after only the best in every category (based on available research) so one shouldn`t feel bad about the final words does he personally like the product or will he recommend it or not, it`s up to person themself to decide that. Most 2-way horizontal MTM center channels suffers the same problems as this 340 SE, so nothing new really. There was some things that didn´t show on Ascends data when Amir compared those, but Ascend is hopefully going to comment more in few days.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike77 View Post
    Sadly not where he measures the gear, for stereo pair yes. He has cinema gear somewhere else. In this case the measured data shows us certain things about the engineering of this product and it`s up to person to decide after listening does he like it or not. These should be used as tool to give more information.

    There is enough subjective reviews for speakers in internet. Why they are all so positive? Because you don´t bite the hand that feeds you. Many sites/magazines are run by advertisement money, you start to write negative reviews or saying too straight things the commercial income stops, company won´t send products for review again.

    Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable.

    The person reviewing the gear is electrical engineer who is after only the best in every category (based on available research) so one shouldn`t feel bad about the final words does he personally like the product or will he recommend it or not, it`s up to person themself to decide that. Most 2-way horizontal MTM center channels suffers the same problems as this 340 SE, so nothing new really. There was some things that didn´t show on Ascends data when Amir compared those, but Ascend is hopefully going to comment more in few days.
    I think the guy is going to run into some headwinds. The reviewer is using pre-owned speakers and testing in his garage, acknowledging the poor acoustics. When I look at Audioholics reviews, the speakers are mounted high up on a post outside outside and measured. I assume to eliminate sonic reflections.

    Yes, I'm sure Dave will chime in.
    Last edited by ahender; 03-01-2020 at 04:53 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Amir reminds me of myself ~35 years ago, my first engineering gig designing speakers. I was "all in" for perfect measurements from every speaker and stupidly argued with much more experienced engineers (my mentors) about why such and such should measure this way or that. It’s interesting to me now, having designed over 40 different commercially successful speakers, with overall sales far exceeding over 300K units – I have come to realize more and more that my mentors were more right than wrong.

    I have no experience with the Klippel NFS so I can’t comment as to the accuracy of the device in comparison to the equipment we use, but it looks to be close and a nice all-in-one solution.

    The 340SE center measurements show the “issue” that all horizontal MTM speakers are inherently subject to, that is off-axis lobing. Some might show less than the 340 center, most are considerably worse. It is important to understand that all center channel speakers are a compromised design one way or another, that holds true for all speaker designs in general, but center speakers take the cake.

    Amir’s measurements of the 340SE center show the effect of off-axis lobing starting at about 15 degrees off-axis horizontally (with the speaker positioned horizontally of course) When you think about that – and it is generally what I have been consistent about for years (+/- 15 degrees horizontally), at a typical 10 foot listening distance, 15 degrees off center horizontally is nearly 3 feet to the left or right of the center speaker. Few people sit this far off-axis and if they do, other more serious problems come into play than lobing.

    That said, we do not listen to center speakers in anechoic chambers (reflection free rooms) and as such, looking at individual off-axis measurements is rather meaningless (which is why Harman typically does not post them). It can be quite confusing to consumers and this lobing issue typically gets a bad rap because of the way those individual measurements look (it is easy to say, “oh wow – look how bad”). However, if we sit 15 degrees off from the center, we do not hear that 15-degree response measurement, we hear the averaged response of the speaker – that is taking all of those measurements and averaging them together. If you look at Amir’s “predicted in-room response” (which averages various responses) – you will see the response of the speaker looks good.

    It is interesting that Amir stood the speaker upright and took the same measurements. I am glad he did as I have stated for decades now that someone sitting within that +/-15 degree horizontal window I mentioned would not be capable of hearing a difference between the speaker being placed horizontally or vertically (those who are adamant against horizontal MTM's claim otherwise). The soundpower and predicted in-room response measurements for the speaker in both positions clearly indicate this to be true as they are nearly identical (not accounting for various center channel speaker placement issues, like shelves or the TV or an entertainment center)

    If you look at Amir’s measurements of the Revel C52 center ( 3-way $2000+) – the soundpower response between that and our 340SE center look very similar, of course – one must account for the difference in the vertical scale of Amir’s measurements, for some reason he used a 10dB vertical scale on the Revel and a very tight 5dB vertical scale on our 340 so the response of the Revel naturally looks much better but they are actually quite similar. (it makes our speaker look much worse in comparison) However, the C52 (due to being a WTMW design) does show off-axis vertical issues, something our lowly $300 CMT-340SE center does not show. Now, almost no one is able to position a center speaker so that the acoustic center is at ear-level, typically not even close and angling the speaker upwards or downwards doesn’t solve this issue. So, which is more problematic, >15 degree horizontal off-axis issues or vertical off-axis issues? A center is designed to anchor the dialogue to the screen so vertical response of the center is quite important as well, since almost all centers sit above or below the screen which is rarely, if ever going to be at ear-level.

    There has not been nearly enough research done on this particular matter for a definitive answer, but I will say based on my own research – which corresponds to 30+ years, in combination with sales numbers, satisfaction rate numbers and hundreds of thousands of correspondences with consumers – this Horizontal MTM issue for center channel use is wildly overblown. Our 340’s (both the mains and centers) maintain some of our highest satisfaction rate percentages – well over 98%.

    Additionally, as mentioned, all center speaker designs present major compromises and the 340SE center was not designed for a ruler flat response. The frequency response was designed to compensate for typical center channel placement (this is clearly indicated on our site) – the slight +3dB rise at ~ 1kHz is part of the design and helps compensate for reflection and baffle issues caused by typical center channel placement, which tend to boost frequencies at ~800Hz and lower. Also, the 340SE center is different than the 340SE main – the 340SE main, if Amir does measure it – will have a flatter overall response (he will probably like it better because of that )

    I applaud what Amir is attempting to do, but he should not be trying to come up with some type of preference rating or even interjecting his own opinions. Perhaps after a decade of measuring speakers, thousands of them – he will understand that there is quite a bit more to a speaker than just the measurements he is taking - and attempting to interpret them into some type of rating that will determine overall preference is inherently flawed and biased. He also needs to be careful when posting measurements of speakers that consumers loan to him – his measurements of the Sierra-2 that he obtained from someone, while the measurements do generally look good, I do suspect a possible issue with the ribbon.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ascend CMT-340 SE Center Channel measurements!

    Keep in mind that the preference rating is separate from the measurements/spinorama results and is based on the research and formula created by Sean Olive at Harman. It's clearly not perfect, but is useful as a guide and was peer reviewed and statistically validated to have a predictability rating of 0.86. Here is a link to how the rating is derived:
    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...8/#post-302047

    All the data taken so far is surmised in the speaker preference listing and the graphs are all made to the same scale. You can compare the spins from different speakers this way. Here is a link to the spreadsheet/data:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8fYZPJ/pubhtml

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