Would a center make a big difference in a 2.1 system? Currently own the Sierra-2EX.

[Bruce Watson]

But after reading the replies here and my research elsewhere, I think I'll be disappointed.

Why guess when you can know? This is why Ascend Acoustics has its 30 day guarantee:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...30dayguar.html

This lets you try it out in your space. See how it works for you, personally. Not me. Not anyone else. Just you.

Worst that can happen is you're out a few buck shipping. But then you'll also know and can quit guessing.

[j0nnyfive]

Adam,

I researched your initial setup (from your initial posts). Are your speakers sitting on a desk? One thing to keep in mind is that, in general, speakers tend to sound better when they are not sitting too closely to lots of surfaces (furniture/walls/floor/etc). These surrounding surfaces can "muddy" or "color" the sound and also make the imaging sound funny (as in, your phantom center imaging can sound funny... not good!) Then, if you use room correction on TOP of that... you can really have a mess on your hands. (I love Yamaha, btw)

One thing you can try, as an exercise, is put the speakers on top of some stands (or stools) of some kind, and then move them out into the middle of the room away from all surfaces... disable the subwoofer... and disable all of the special room correction / EQ settings. Just run the speakers full range with "straight" power. Sit kinda close to them so you can hear the direct sound easily without getting hit by too many echos/reflections.

Now, listen to a mix of audio sources including movies (with high dynamic range), the music that you normally listen to, and also something like Chesky Records audiophile tests. Take some time and let your ears adjust. If you switch your setup around too often/too quickly, you can end up chasing your tail because your ears/brain need time to make sense of the changes. (Yes, I'm not kidding. But, not too long. I'm talking a few days, not years haha!)

This can give you a sense of what your speakers are "supposed" to sound like. (Your own little pseudo anechoic chamber if you will.) This little exercise can sometimes surprise you. Just play around with the speaker positioning and watch the stereo image come to life.

Also: I hope I do a good job of explaining this (I'm not a technician or engineer), but in general, your room correction software should not change very much about your sound. It is there to "perfect" the sound, if you choose to use it. (The icing on the cake, so to speak) If the RC made a major change to the sound, then, usually, there are some bad things going on. Your room acoustics/speaker positioning could be really bad, or the RC program/process might have really screwed up.

I don't wanna scare you with "room acoustics" stuff. Usually, there are lots of practical things you can do to help it a lot (it doesn't have to be perfect, we just want it to not be horrible). Some practical things can be simply moving the speakers away from other surfaces. Moving your chair a little closer or farther. Room acoustics/speaker positioning/etc can make a HUGE difference! I think it's said that about half of your sound quality is a room acoustics thing. I don't really know, but it's a big deal.

Obligatory thread-relevant disclaimer (lol): Not saying don't buy a center. Just wanna make sure something isn't messed up somewhere. Where is your sub? Subwoofer setup can make a HUGE difference in your overall sound presentation (say "HUGE" like Donald Trump. It's fun!). We want to make sure things are well balanced, accurate, then stay with "accurate" for a while to re-educate your ears, then "tweak" a little here and there to satisfy your individual preference.

Also, I don't mean to make this stuff sound like a lot of work, it can be very fun and interesting! And, in the process, I think you will fall in love with your gear (I know I did mine). If you are starting with Ascend Acoustics, Rythmik Audio, and Yamaha... you are golden. (You are starting where I stopped!) If you already knew all this stuff, well, okay. Haha! Keep learning and asking! It's a fun journey!

[adamk77]

Why guess when you can know? This is why Ascend Acoustics has its 30 day guarantee:

Thanks for that suggestion. I'll definitely consider it as an option.

I researched your initial setup (from your initial posts). Are your speakers sitting on a desk? One thing to keep in mind is that, in general, speakers tend to sound better when they are not sitting too closely to lots of surfaces (furniture/walls/floor/etc). These surrounding surfaces can "muddy" or "color" the sound and also make the imaging sound funny (as in, your phantom center imaging can sound funny... not good!) Then, if you use room correction on TOP of that... you can really have a mess on your hands. (I love Yamaha, btw)

One thing you can try, as an exercise, is put the speakers on top of some stands (or stools) of some kind, and then move them out into the middle of the room away from all surfaces... disable the subwoofer... and disable all of the special room correction / EQ settings. Just run the speakers full range with "straight" power. Sit kinda close to them so you can hear the direct sound easily without getting hit by too many echos/reflections.

Now, listen to a mix of audio sources including movies (with high dynamic range), the music that you

Wow, thanks for all the great info j0nnyfive! I've attached the photo below.

I'd say the speakers are about 6 feet apart, and I sit about 6 feet away. They're sitting on a stand on top of one of those sound isolation stands from ISO Acoustics (http://www.isoacoustics.com/products...lation-stands/).

The subwoofer is located under my desk, smack middle of the speakers. I chose the location using the crawl test.

It's an oddly shaped, non-rectangular room. Shaped like below:

Screen Shot 2019-11-30 at 1.37.04 PM.png

The closest wall is the right wall with about 2 feet of clearance from the speaker. There's about 4 feet clearance from the back wall. The room is carpeted.

I'm not running any room EQ settings. When I listen to music I use the "Straight" mode from my Yamaha A750 AVR. During movies, audio is most audible when I use the "Movie - Drama" mode.

FWIW, I love how music sounds. Movies sound ok, and I can make out dialogue well enough. My wife and my kids got something nice for the holidays, and I got a little jealous because I didn't get anything nice. So I thought I could treat myself and relive the experience I had when I first received my Sierras. I thought a center would give me that wow factor. The more I think about it though, I think I will be disappointed.

I know myself. If I go with the cheaper route, I'll be constantly wondering about the Sierra 2EX or the Luna Duo. If the more expensive option doesn't wow me, I'll have buyer's remorse. Maybe it's worth demo'ing it like Bruce suggested, but that comes with its own can of worms for me


IMG_5500 copy.jpg

[jimb]

If it is not already done, I'd certainly think about good sound absorbing treatment on the right wall around the 'reflection point' from the speaker to your listening position.

[j0nnyfive]

You're very welcome! Anytime!

Now, just as a disclaimer, I'm not an audio engineer. I only play one on TV. I'm learning this stuff more and more just like you. And, there are plenty of people here that know much more than I do. Now, having said that, here are some bullet points of interest, just looking at your diagram and your picture...


1. The subwoofer beneath your desk. I have never had good experience with my subwoofer(s) being beneath a piece of furniture. I always hear this "box within a box" sound that greatly colors the bass and it always made this "hollow", "boomy", or "boxy" type of sound at certain frequencies. You may be fine here, but this gives me pause...

2. You have some nearby surfaces that may be hurting your image or sound quality. That surface is (drumroll please...) the desk. AND... the monitor. I can only imagine that these surfaces are doing a number on your imaging. It's a hard, reflective surface, fairly close to your ears, as is the monitor. I don't know exactly HOW they are affecting the sound, but I doubt it's good. (Who knows? Maybe it IS good and now we will all be getting desks! Woohoo!)

3. This might not be a big deal, but the asymmetry of the speaker distances from the walls (L and R wall) might be affecting the imaging some. But, if I were to guess, I would think your desk is probably the biggest thing that could be affecting your sound quality.

I don't know for sure, that's why I recommend bringing your speakers out into the open, away from everything, and just "playing" with their positioning, toe-in, and stuff like that. Get accustomed to what they are "supposed" to sound like in their best element. Then, you can try to replicate that experience back into your setup the best you can.

Now, there are probably other people here that will probably have advice for you that will blow away my understanding. lol But, I'm trying to get you to a good starting point.

You have a GREAT system (speakers, sub, AVR). That's 50%. The other 50% is the setup (positioning, room acoustics, etc). I think you should put your attention there for a while (again?). Heck, the learning experience is worth it, alone.

So, here's what I would do:

1. Understand that you have a killer system.
2. Play with a pure 2.0 setup out away from everything (to find "neutral territory").
3. Try to replicate this "neutral territory" sound in a do-able setup, as much as possible.
4. Now, try to integrate your subwoofer back into your system with a slightly "less is more" approach. I would start with crossing over at 80hz and go from there.

Your system should create a nice phantom "image" directly in front of your screen, as if the sound is coming right out of the screen itself. (Kinda like a movie theater)

Okay, this is really all I know (for now). It's fairly non-technical. And, I'm sure others will have very good advice, especially about subwoofer integration.

Just thought of this: Have you tried moving your speakers closer to you? Onto your desk? Would those speaker pads you have work for this? Raise them up to ear level? You could always do some acoustic treatment to the desk. Maybe approach this from that angle. Just ideas. Nearfield listening can give you some very nice clarity.

[j0nnyfive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1W7QgqhR8

This is just one video on You Tube that talks about speaker placement. Pretty cool stuff!

This is called "A Master Class in speaker placement". I just skimmed through this video, and this may be the kind of thing that would help you, Adam! (and me too, when I get the energy and time). It talks about distances from walls, toe in, sitting positions, a little about how bass waves act in a room and how they can interact or interfere with your ability to hear the other frequencies. There are probably many videos on this topic, but you may want to check this out! Ya'll have a good night!

[adamk77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1W7QgqhR8

This is just one video on You Tube that talks about speaker placement. Pretty cool stuff!

This is called "A Master Class in speaker placement". I just skimmed through this video, and this may be the kind of thing that would help you, Adam! (and me too, when I get the energy and time). It talks about distances from walls, toe in, sitting positions, a little about how bass waves act in a room and how they can interact or interfere with your ability to hear the other frequencies. There are probably many videos on this topic, but you may want to check this out! Ya'll have a good night!

I'm watching it right now and it's great stuff. Thanks so much for sharing.

Imaging has never been an issue though and I can hear the phantom center. But that's just one aspect, and I have no idea how these speakers sound overall in an ideal situation.

The photo I posted with the Sierra 2 and the iMac is a bit old. I've since upgraded to the 2EX. And, probably to the detriment of sound quality, the 27" iMac has been replaced with a much bigger 43" monitor. There is much less clearance to the left and right of the speakers now, so I'm sure it's interfering with the sound waves more.

I'll have to try removing the desk and monitor as you suggested and see how it sounds under the ideal condition (or as ideal as I can get it).

Thanks for the great tips!

[j0nnyfive]

You're welcome! I love this stuff! (except waiting for an Xbox One to finish installing... geeze, I miss how games used to be when you just plugged the thing in!)

Ooooh... I was thinking you had the Sierra-2. You have the 2EX? NICE. That's what I have as well. I love mine. Wow, I love them so. lol You have a very nice system my friend. VERY nice. Wow. And a Rythmik? So sweet. I'm a little jelly.

I was going to tell you that when you type in "speaker positioning" in YouTube you get a motherload of videos! I just watched another guy who has a cool video. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXohzklfwPs

This guy had some cool practical tips/tricks. I've never spent so much time learning about speaker positioning before! I went to Lowes tonight and got some fasteners. I'm gonna experiment with some acoustic damping on my side walls. I have a small room as well. I think I need to tame the highs just a little bit (or at least experiment with it). My side walls are a little close for comfort, and I know my first reflections are too close to me.

CENTER CHANNEL!!! Sorry. Just had an on-topic attack of Tourettes.

I'm glad your imaging is working! At least you have that. I'm almost willing to bet you'll hear a difference when you move the speakers away from everything (and don't have anything in your path to them). It should sound more open. Time to go check on the Xbox...

[adamk77]

That's a great video with data and science.

I've been looking to move for a few years now and have put in bids on multiple houses but still houseless because the housing market has been crazy where I live. I'm hoping that I'll at least have a rectangular room to apply some of the principles from the video you shared. My current space is too oddly shaped.

Maybe I'll try the acoustic dampening too. Do you have a specific brand you're considering? I see bunch on Amazon.

[j0nnyfive]

I am researching this very topic now. I am reading this thread at AVS right now:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ic-panels.html

And this was interesting about home studios:

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/soundproof-room/

I'm just researching right now. I'm pretty pumped about getting my room treated, now!