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Thread: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

  1. #1
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    Default Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Greetings! I'm JP. First post. I am putting together a music-only system. I carefully listened to these two comparison videos in the same room with the same equipment:

    NrT Tower:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFxC-1jsXw0&t

    Sierra-2:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-7AcN0mscY

    Overall, I much preferred the sound of the NrT Tower because it brought the guitars more forward, making them easier to hear. I thought the vocals sounded very good on both speakers, although a little different. I can hear the added smoothness and slightly more natural sound on the Sierra 2 and do hear the advantage of the RAAL there.

    During my research I have read the following quote from Dave:
    The characteristic you are describing between the Sierra-1 NrT and Sierra-2 with regard to male voices being more upfront has nothing to do with the choice of tweeter (at least not directly as you are presuming). The Sierra-1 NrT is a more "forward" sounding speaker than any other we offer. This was part of the plan for this speaker -- to make it more aggressive, more forward in its presentation, with more high frequency detail and energy than our standard Sierra-1.

    This characteristic you describe is fully controlled by the crossover, it is a function of where the tweeter and woofer cross and the overall balance of energy throughout the speaker's bandwidth. We could design the Sierra-2 and make it just as forward or even more so than the Sierra-1 NrT. That particular type of sound, while appealing to you and others, is generally not as appealing to the majority -- who mostly prefer a more neutral balance in the soundpower response (all of the energy the speaker produces, both on- and off-axis)

    That said, with regard to forwardness -- the Ribbon Towers and the Dome Towers are about the exact same. Both options are a bit more forward sounding than the Sierra-2, but less than the Sierra-1 NrT. I would describe the towers as being directly in the middle of the Sierra-2 and Sierra-1 NrT when it comes to forward presentation.

    The question you need to ask yourself in deciding between the ribbon and dome for the towers is timbre accuracy, detail, and smoothness. For accurate timbre and detail in the upper mids and highs, the RAAL is unmatched. I *strongly* recommend it for audio bliss (as this is what you are trying to achieve) Our ratio of ribbons to domes is about 80% to 20% and this has nothing to do with home theater, but because of music. I would also say that 25% of our dome customers end up having us upgrade to the ribbons whereas we have only had one customer have us convert from ribbon towers to dome towers.

    Now – if you prefer a more rock and roll, more aggressive top end response – something a bit brighter, a bit more HF energy into the room – (what most listeners are more used to listening too – unless they already own speakers with RAAL ribbons) – the dome towers are a good choice.
    It seems both Tower versions will be a bit more forward than the Sierra 2, which is what I want in terms of bringing the guitars forward, based on the comparison videos. Is that correct that the RAAL Tower will bring the guitars foward in the exact same manner the NrT Tower did?

    Can you clarify what you mean when you say the NrT Tower & RAAL Tower are equal in terms forwardness yet the NrT is a bit brighter and more aggressive? In my mind, those things contradict.

    I listen to a lot of heavy metal, with good quality recordings. I occationaly listen at high SPL, over 100db, but mostly around 90db. I have been told by the creator of those videos that the NrT version will be better for me, as the NrT will give a bit of a "meatier" sound for my music. The creator of the videos has not heard the RAAL Tower to my knowledge, so I'm wondering if he misjuding the RAAL Tower sound based on Dave's crossover & voicing information quoted above.

    I want to preserve the guitar fowardness I heard in the NrT Towers first & formost, and at this point leaning toward purchasing the NrT Towers. I am hestiant to purchase RAAL Towers but if they will do the same thing with guitars, and add a bit more smoothness and natural realism in the vocal department, then perhaps I should?

    Room is 14x12x10. Carpet floors.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    I don't see how anyone could possibly make a determination of relatively subtle speaker sound judgements among high performance speakers via such YouTube recordings. I think your descriptions of relative characteristics you want, however, might get you some good advise. If he sees this and chimes in, I'd think Dave himself would have the best advice. And, by far the best approach would be to call them and discuss your specific thoughts, directly.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by jimb View Post
    I don't see how anyone could possibly make a determination of relatively subtle speaker sound judgements among high performance speakers via such YouTube recordings. I think your descriptions of relative characteristics you want, however, might get you some good advise. If he sees this and chimes in, I'd think Dave himself would have the best advice. And, by far the best approach would be to call them and discuss your specific thoughts, directly.
    When it comes to certain characteristics or true subtlety, I'll give you that, however here I found the differences clear enough. What I hear on these recordings (use headphones) match the description from Dave in terms of forwardness. Comparison audio recordings, when done properly with good equipment, quite easily give you a general picture of a speaker's sound profile. YouTube's audio bitrate and quality over 720p are good enough to easily make A/B comparisons. That would be like saying you can't adequately hear the difference between different guitar amps & speaker cabinets on .mp3 albums because you are playing them all through your same home stereo speakers. I come from the guitar world, and I've listened to a lot of plain audio recordings, YouTube recordings, album recordings, and so-on comparing different guitar amplifiers and speaker cabinets. I've also heard and/or played many of those same amps/cabinets in person. A Peavey 5150 through Celestial V30's sounds like a Peavey 5150 through V30's, recorded or in person. Of course listening in person gives you the most complete picture, but a Marshall JCM 800 conveys more presence, mids, and brightness on a recording over the Peavey 5150 the same way it does in real life. The same goes for hi-fi speakers in my experience, but to a lesser extent. Recordings can definitely be a useful comparison tool.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    ... Comparison audio recordings, when done properly with good equipment, quite easily give you a general picture of a speaker's sound profile. ....
    Agreed! But what is the quality of the recording in this case? It is good enough to hear some differences, but are they sufficient for what you would prefer, overall, in person? Would something that you don't hear via those YouTube recordings be of value to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    ...That would be like saying you can't adequately hear the difference between different guitar amps & speaker cabinets on .mp3 albums because you are playing them all through your same home stereo speakers. ...
    I, for one, wouldn't say that. Those are 'instruments', to me, and I certainly expect to hear differences among instruments on my systems. I certainly hear differences in types of instruments, including brand and expression in string and woodwind instrument and players - even with 'only' a decent .mp3 file.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    ... Of course listening in person gives you the most complete picture, but a Marshall JCM 800 conveys more presence, mids, and brightness on a recording over the Peavey 5150 the same way it does in real life. The same goes for hi-fi speakers in my experience, but to a lesser extent. Recordings can definitely be a useful comparison tool.
    Agreed! In this case, I think you also care about stereo presentation in your room (my assumption). So, for example, on headphones, those recordings reveal that one is more present/'forward' in the mids than the other. But does that make it too much for you in your use?

    Forgive the implied criticism of your effort. It really was not intended as such. You have done a lot of research and have a lot of applicable experience, and you are here seeking inputs from others who have heard these, directly, and NOT making a decision based on those two files. When I suspend my knee-jerk reaction to people using YouTube to judge some else's speakers, I think you possibly could do a valuable assessment of the differences to determine your preference, particularly if you had one of them as a starting point.

    I have S-2 and Luna, and I have had my S-2's modified to S-2EX. The S-2, to me, was always extremely 'clear', but a bit 'thin' - recessed in the mids. The S-2EX improves this, significantly. Both have the same tweeter. I think of the mids when I think of a guitar, and things being more present/forward or not. This is perhaps why Dave made the distinction he did about high frequency energy versus 'forward' presentation.

    Ascend does have the in-home trial, but paying for unnecessary shipping on big speakers is no fun. So, I'll still recommend calling Dave to get the best sense of what these variations will mean for you. The NrT Towers might well be your preferred sound, and then you save a bit of coin.

    You might also get some good feedback from others here by referencing some other speakers you have had that you feel are better or worse for what you want regarding midrange presentation. Perhaps someone has had experience with one of those compared to their Towers (RAAL or NrT).

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    When it comes to certain characteristics or true subtlety, I'll give you that, however here I found the differences clear enough. What I hear on these recordings (use headphones) match the description from Dave in terms of forwardness. Comparison audio recordings, when done properly with good equipment, quite easily give you a general picture of a speaker's sound profile. YouTube's audio bitrate and quality over 720p are good enough to easily make A/B comparisons. That would be like saying you can't adequately hear the difference between different guitar amps & speaker cabinets on .mp3 albums because you are playing them all through your same home stereo speakers. I come from the guitar world, and I've listened to a lot of plain audio recordings, YouTube recordings, album recordings, and so-on comparing different guitar amplifiers and speaker cabinets. I've also heard and/or played many of those same amps/cabinets in person. A Peavey 5150 through Celestial V30's sounds like a Peavey 5150 through V30's, recorded or in person. Of course listening in person gives you the most complete picture, but a Marshall JCM 800 conveys more presence, mids, and brightness on a recording over the Peavey 5150 the same way it does in real life. The same goes for hi-fi speakers in my experience, but to a lesser extent. Recordings can definitely be a useful comparison tool.
    Honestly, attempting to make subjective speaker comparisons by listening to YouTube videos of the speakers through your headphones is no different than trying to get the feel of a performance car by choosing it as your car in a video game, even if VR.

    There are several main issues there. First, any non-reference grade measurement microphone imparts it's own frequency response to what it measures. True reference grade measurement mics cost a fortune and I highly doubt a youtube reviewer has access to one.

    Second, we hear in "stereo" and the speakers and source are played in stereo. A microphone records in monaural and then this monaural recording is then being played back through your headphones with the same monaural signal reaching your left ear and right ear. This obviously presents some serious issues because the characteristic you are looking for, "forwardness" - can not be judged unless listening to a true stereo source.

    Microphones pick up all the radiated sound in the room. Our ears/brains work differently. Speakers with wide dispersion in a room will sound different than speakers with limited dispersion. There is no possible way to translate this to a recording, or especially a microphone. Basically the same reasons why listening to live music sounds so very different than listening to a recording of that same performance...

    There are many problems I can list, but I don't have the time. Basically, under no circumstances do I recommend even attempting to try to judge a speaker's performance or characteristics by listening to a YouTube recording of it. YouTube reviewer's will disagree, but I honestly don't know any engineer or speaker designer that would disagree with me.

    That said, what Crutchfield is attempting to do is the correct way, and even that presents problems. They are at least taking the room away, using a appropriate ear-simulating microphones, and complex DSP to compensate for other variables. It is extremely complex...
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Welcome to our forum JP!

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    Greetings! I'm JP. First post. I am putting together a music-only system. I carefully listened to these two comparison videos in the same room with the same equipment:

    NrT Tower:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFxC-1jsXw0&t

    Sierra-2:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-7AcN0mscY

    Overall, I much preferred the sound of the NrT Tower because it brought the guitars more forward, making them easier to hear. I thought the vocals sounded very good on both speakers, although a little different. I can hear the added smoothness and slightly more natural sound on the Sierra 2 and do hear the advantage of the RAAL there.

    During my research I have read the following quote from Dave:


    It seems both Tower versions will be a bit more forward than the Sierra 2, which is what I want in terms of bringing the guitars forward, based on the comparison videos. Is that correct that the RAAL Tower will bring the guitars foward in the exact same manner the NrT Tower did?

    Can you clarify what you mean when you say the NrT Tower & RAAL Tower are equal in terms forwardness yet the NrT is a bit brighter and more aggressive? In my mind, those things contradict.
    Forwardness is a term typically used to describe midrange, where vocals / guitars etc are more forward in the soundstage compared to a speaker where they are further back. Brighter is a term used to describe a speaker having a bit more high frequency energy compared to another speaker. You can have a forward sounding speaker that is not bright, or a bright sounding speaker that is laid back -- these terms are not related.

    The towers have a dedicated midrange driver, and because of this - they project (disperse) sound differently compared to a 2-way - this brings the mids more upfront compared to our 2-way speakers. It is the same between the Ribbon Towers and Dome Towers.



    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    I listen to a lot of heavy metal, with good quality recordings. I occationaly listen at high SPL, over 100db, but mostly around 90db. I have been told by the creator of those videos that the NrT version will be better for me, as the NrT will give a bit of a "meatier" sound for my music. The creator of the videos has not heard the RAAL Tower to my knowledge, so I'm wondering if he misjuding the RAAL Tower sound based on Dave's crossover & voicing information quoted above.

    I want to preserve the guitar fowardness I heard in the NrT Towers first & formost, and at this point leaning toward purchasing the NrT Towers. I am hestiant to purchase RAAL Towers but if they will do the same thing with guitars, and add a bit more smoothness and natural realism in the vocal department, then perhaps I should?

    I would strongly recommend going with the Ribbon Towers if you want forward mids combined with a smooth and natural realism in the vocal and high frequency range.

    Hope this helps and please feel free to reach out to us directly.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by JPW View Post
    I come from the guitar world, and I've listened to a lot of plain audio recordings, YouTube recordings, album recordings, and so-on comparing different guitar amplifiers and speaker cabinets. I've also heard and/or played many of those same amps/cabinets in person. A Peavey 5150 through Celestial V30's sounds like a Peavey 5150 through V30's, recorded or in person. Of course listening in person gives you the most complete picture, but a Marshall JCM 800 conveys more presence, mids, and brightness on a recording over the Peavey 5150 the same way it does in real life. The same goes for hi-fi speakers in my experience, but to a lesser extent. Recordings can definitely be a useful comparison tool.
    I come from the speaker world, and have recently started into the guitar world, and while I think you're right that this works for guitar gear, good speakers are importantly different.

    Fundamentally, the primary design goal of good speakers is more or less the same: flat and smooth frequency response both on- and off-axis (which implies neutrality). Most well-designed speakers are all essentially trying to do the same thing, and it's just a question of what got compromised along the way, that is, how well-executed they are. Differences between very good speakers are subtle, and this is not an accident; they are all basically shooting at the same target.

    Example: I have a pair of Sierra-2s, and a pair of Philharmonic Mini Philharmonitors. These speakers come from two designers with not only similar design goals, but similar design approaches and even use similar parts. The S2s, mostly by virtue of better woofers and cabinets, have much deeper bass extension—that's easy to hear and you could spot that with a YouTube video for sure. But if you crossed over both speakers at, say, 70Hz, it would be a challenge (probably possible, but not easy) to tell them apart in an in-person blind test. These speakers are trying to do the same thing in pretty much the same way, and they are both well-executed. There's no way on earth you could separate them using a YouTube video.

    Guitar amps/cabs are not like this, for one primary reason: they are explicitly trying to sound different. Marshall and Vox (just picked two at random; I'm a bass player—I know, eww—so for me it'd be, say, Ampeg and Darkglass) are, on purpose, shooting at different targets. While good speakers are explicitly trying to not color the sound, designers of (most) guitar gear are doing just the opposite: if they don't color the sound, that's a problem. So of course differences are easy to pick up, even on YouTube videos recorded with crappy mics—differences are the bread and butter of this world.

    The other big issue is mono vs. stereo. You can tell essentially nothing about how well stereo speakers image from a single-mic recording, but pretty much all guitar rigs are mono anyway, so that's not a concern.
    Luna Duo V2 LR, Titan Horizon V2, and Rythmik L22 & L12 in HT, Sierra-LXs in study, S-2EXs and Duo V2 C in bedroom, S-1 NrTs in dining room, S-1s at work, HTM-200s in kitchen. Brother owns CMT-340s and dad has a pair of CBM-170s.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Dave: Thank you for answering my questions with your second post, that was indeed helpful. I feel I have all the information I need to make a decision. I will call if I need anything further. Hopefully, others will be able to read this thread and find it useful. I certainly had no intention of opening up a can of worms with this recording speakers topic. Most of my questions could have been asked without any reference to YouTube videos, so I am glad you were able to pick them out without me restating them.

    JimB: I appreciate that follow-up response. I am aware of the trial period Ascend offers, but I am doing my best by asking questions to avoid having to return anything. Any money I pay to ship back is not a problem. In general, the practice of shipping & returns put a lot of burden on small business owners (and buyers). I'm a small business owner as well and while I don't sell or ship products, I empathize with those who do. In terms of reference speakers, right now I have Monitor Audio Bronze B4 towers (2003ish). I find a problematic bump in the upper bass & low mids while the upper mids are recessed. Guitars get a bit buried in the mix. Treble sounds neutral to me. Vocals sound natural, but not forward. They image well & create somewhat of a 3 dimensional sound, which I like. Overall they have a lot of bass but it is generally undefined not very deep. To make things convoluted, I've also had a pair of newer Monitor Audio Bronze 5 towers (2016). These were well-reviewed online. Drastically different sound. Forward mids, which I liked, but hot and dry on the treble. Snare hits and vocal sibilance killed it for me. Bass was weaker but better defined, which was fine with me because I use subwoofers. Had some Klipsch RF-35 towers briefly a long time ago, I remember not liking them at all, and the midrange being bizarre as if it was scooped out or formed a "V" on the graphic equalizer.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Question for the owner about Tower recommendation

    Those are some pretty good reference points on speaker preferences. I hope others here are able to provide some useful comparisons! Good luck!

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