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Thread: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

  1. #1
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    Default Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Howdy.

    Well, I've read various articles online, but I find the answers to be confusing/vague/incomplete.

    I'm trying to understand how my receiver "knows" it won't clip if I turn it up to 0db (assuming no EQ or calibration. I'm just running things straight).

    I don't plan on running it this loud, but it would give me more peace of mind to understand this topic me thinks. For instance, some music is very compressed (runs hot). Movies can have large swings in SPL. How does my receiver (Yamaha Aventage) "know" that it won't clip if I set the volume to 0db?

    And, if it is set to +1 db, does this mean it will most likely clip while watching a movie?
    If set to -1db, is it possible for this volume setting to clip, depending on the source?

    I've looked in the manual, but I couldn't find an explanation of this. Could someone help me understand this? (No hurry though.)

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    Howdy.

    Well, I've read various articles online, but I find the answers to be confusing/vague/incomplete.

    I'm trying to understand how my receiver "knows" it won't clip if I turn it up to 0db (assuming no EQ or calibration. I'm just running things straight).

    I don't plan on running it this loud, but it would give me more peace of mind to understand this topic me thinks. For instance, some music is very compressed (runs hot). Movies can have large swings in SPL. How does my receiver (Yamaha Aventage) "know" that it won't clip if I set the volume to 0db?

    And, if it is set to +1 db, does this mean it will most likely clip while watching a movie?
    If set to -1db, is it possible for this volume setting to clip, depending on the source?

    I've looked in the manual, but I couldn't find an explanation of this. Could someone help me understand this? (No hurry though.)

    Thanks!
    Are you sure that your Yamaha has that feature? I haven't noticed any clip limiter function on any receiver I've ever used.

    Some QSC amps do have a clip limiter function (The DCA-1622 for example). In the manual it says this:

    Clip limiter
    Description
    When the audio signal drives the amp's output circuit beyond its power capability, it clips, flattening the peaks of the waveform. The clip limiter detects this and quickly reduces the gain to minimize the amount of overdrive. To preserve as much of the program dynamics as possible, limiting occurs only during actual clipping. Each channel has its own clip limiter, and you can switch it on or off independently, as shown at left.

    When to use it
    When driving full-range speakers, clip limiting reduces high frequency distortion caused by bass overloads. It also protects high frequency drivers from excess overdrive and
    harsh clipping harmonics. We recommend using the clip limiters in all cinema applications.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    BTW, notice that it says it reduces the gain after clipping occurs. It does not eliminate clipping altogether.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Hello Mikesiskav!

    I'm not thinking of a clip limiting feature per se. I just want to understand what is happening, power-wise, when you turn the receiver up to "0db". In other words... What is it, mechanically, that 0db represents? How much power is this?

    The receiver gives you something like -80.... -40..... -20....-10...-5.... (0)....+5....+10, etc.

    So, I want to know how loud I can turn the receiver up without worrying about any clipping. Is 0db safe? -5db? And, how does one know this? My understanding is that there is some kind of attenuation process happening when the volume is set at, say, -20 or -10. But, at 0db, supposedly, there is no longer any attenuation taking place. But, I wonder what +5 gives you? Or +10?

    I'm really just trying to understand what is happening, "mechanistically", inside the AVR when you set the AVR to 0db. Or +1db. Or -5db. etc.

    I know this may not be a very clear question, but I'm no audio expert either, please forgive me about that.

    Thanks Mikesiskav!! Maybe you can help clear me up here.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    To clarify:

    When the volume is set to a negative number, does this mean the input signal is being attenuated digitally?
    (I'm curious).

    When the volume is set to a positive number, what is happening then?

    Is there a "safe" volume level at all? I would assume that at -30, nothing will clip. But what about -5? -10? 0?

    My current understanding, from what I've read elsewhere: Below 0d, the receiver performs "cuts" to the signal. Above 0d, the receiver "boosts" the signal. I would assume that at 0db, the system is simply amplifying the given signal by some predetermined amount (whatever this is). I could be wrong about all of what I just said. I'm speculating.

    My input: HDMI from a PS3 or blue tooth from my phone. Digital input into the receiver.

    My output: 2 speakers (L and R) only. No other speakers.
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 11-09-2019 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    To clarify:

    When the volume is set to a negative number, does this mean the input signal is being attenuated digitally?
    (I'm curious).

    When the volume is set to a positive number, what is happening then?

    Is there a "safe" volume level at all? I would assume that at -30, nothing will clip. But what about -5? -10? 0?

    My current understanding, from what I've read elsewhere: Below 0d, the receiver performs "cuts" to the signal. Above 0d, the receiver "boosts" the signal. I would assume that at 0db, the system is simply amplifying the given signal by some predetermined amount (whatever this is). I could be wrong about all of what I just said. I'm speculating.

    My input: HDMI from a PS3 or blue tooth from my phone. Digital input into the receiver.

    My output: 2 speakers (L and R) only. No other speakers.
    Jonny,

    You got it all wrong. The volume knob is a signal attenuator from beginning to end. You receiver/amp is always "amplifying" the signal. The volume knob controls how much the signal is amplified.

    The scale is arbitrary. To make it useful, you should calibrate your system to where 0db is reference level at the listening position. So, when you are at -5db, you are listening at -5db from your reference, or at +5db you are 5db over your reference.

    That said, volume levels also change with sources depending on output signal of that source.

    Is there a safe level? Depends on the variables: the speakers, the source, the calibration, the material you a listening to.
    -curtis

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Hey Curtis! Thanks! Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

    1. Let's say my arbitrary volume range is from -80 all the way up to +15.
    So, the attenuation of the signal begins at "+14" and works its way down the scale to -80?
    Do you know whether this attenuation takes place digitally? I would assume it would for
    accuracy's sake, but I do not know. (It is intuitive to me that a form of amplification is
    taking place all along the scale. I suppose I'm trying to figure out how the attenuator and
    amplifier interact with each other.)

    2. If I calibrate my system such that "0db" now equals a different loudness (db) with a given signal,
    I'm afraid this may complicate the issue. Let's assume for simplicity that I have calibrated my
    loudness level, and that there was no change from the system's default loudness at 0db. Let's
    just assume that the system was already giving me an accurate 75db test signal at 0db. Lucky me.
    I think this will help simplify my question. If I'm misunderstanding some aspect of this, please
    correct me.

    As an aside: I'm not really interested in matching my volume knob's scale to some external reference
    such as THX or other, per se. I just turn the volume up until it sounds good. (almost everything I put in the movie player seems to have it's own standard of loudness anyway, so I just compensate the old fashioned
    way by using the knob.)


    3. You make a good point with "it depends". Let me give you the variables.
    Source = A highly dynamic blu-ray movie over HDMI. So, the signal is digital.
    Speakers = Sierra-2EX (MT 2-way, looks like about 6 ohm minimal?) run full range, stereo pair only.
    Calibration = None. I'm just running it straight.
    Receiver = Yamaha Aventage 3070 (I think it's rated at 150w 2-channel)


    So, to bring it back to my question: Is there a volume level (along the receiver's arbitrary scale) that could be considered a "safe maximum" such that I can be fairly certain there will be no clipping, assuming my source is a highly dynamic blu-ray and the input signal is digital via HDMI into the receiver? I know that we call it "arbitrary" but I'm not convinced that it is COMPLETELY arbitrary. After all, could one not reasonably assume that 2 of these receivers would be roughly the same loudness when compared next to each other, even if not calibrated? (and assuming all other variables are controlled for?) One would assume that, at 0db arbitrary setting, the receiver is delivering a certain percentage of it's full power into a standard "75db" test signal. I think I'm just trying to understand what that percentage might be, and if there are any rules of thumb.

    For example: One "rule of thumb" floating around the internets is "Just don't turn it past 0db and you'll be fine". But, I don't know how grounded this little rule is. I don't know if the receiver would really be "fine" no matter what. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Is there really a good "rule of thumb" that makes sense, in general, for receivers that use this type of arbitrary scale? (-80 to +15, etc).

    So, my good Curtis, if you read all of this... I'm so sorry. lol
    Oh, and BTW, I didn't get it ALL wrong. I DO have 2 speakers. I counted them.
    Thanks again, everyone!
    Last edited by j0nnyfive; 11-10-2019 at 10:36 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    Hey Curtis! Thanks! Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

    1. Let's say my arbitrary volume range is from -80 all the way up to +15.
    So, the attenuation of the signal begins at "+14" and works its way down the scale to -80?
    Do you know whether this attenuation takes place digitally? I would assume it would for
    accuracy's sake, but I do not know. (It is intuitive to me that a form of amplification is
    taking place all along the scale. I suppose I'm trying to figure out how the attenuator and
    amplifier interact with each other.)
    Not necessarily. The range is just a range. It may go beyond +15, it is just the available range set by the manufacturer.
    The attenuator controls how much the amplification is applied to the signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    Hey Curtis! Thanks! Let me see if I understand what you're saying.
    2. If I calibrate my system such that "0db" now equals a different loudness (db) with a given signal,
    I'm afraid this may complicate the issue. Let's assume for simplicity that I have calibrated my
    loudness level, and that there was no change from the system's default loudness at 0db. Let's
    just assume that the system was already giving me an accurate 75db test signal at 0db. Lucky me.
    I think this will help simplify my question. If I'm misunderstanding some aspect of this, please
    correct me.

    As an aside: I'm not really interested in matching my volume knob's scale to some external reference
    such as THX or other, per se. I just turn the volume up until it sounds good. (almost everything I put in the movie player seems to have it's own standard of loudness anyway, so I just compensate the old fashioned
    way by using the knob.)
    Not sure what to tell you here other than I think you are way over thinking the use the volume knob.

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    Hey Curtis! Thanks! Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

    3. You make a good point with "it depends". Let me give you the variables.
    Source = A highly dynamic blu-ray movie over HDMI. So, the signal is digital.
    Speakers = Sierra-2EX (MT 2-way, looks like about 6 ohm minimal?) run full range, stereo pair only.
    Calibration = None. I'm just running it straight.
    Receiver = Yamaha Aventage 3070 (I think it's rated at 150w 2-channel)


    So, to bring it back to my question: Is there a volume level (along the receiver's arbitrary scale) that could be considered a "safe maximum" such that I can be fairly certain there will be no clipping, assuming my source is a highly dynamic blu-ray and the input signal is digital via HDMI into the receiver? I know that we call it "arbitrary" but I'm not convinced that it is COMPLETELY arbitrary. After all, could one not reasonably assume that 2 of these receivers would be roughly the same loudness when compared next to each other, even if not calibrated? (and assuming all other variables are controlled for?) One would assume that, at 0db arbitrary setting, the receiver is delivering a certain percentage of it's full power into a standard "75db" test signal. I think I'm just trying to understand what that percentage might be, and if there are any rules of thumb.

    For example: One "rule of thumb" floating around the internets is "Just don't turn it past 0db and you'll be fine". But, I don't know how grounded this little rule is. I don't know if the receiver would really be "fine" no matter what. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Is there really a good "rule of thumb" that makes sense, in general, for receivers that use this type of arbitrary scale? (-80 to +15, etc).
    It is absolutely arbitrary. You can set 0db to whatever you want.

    What is safe is the volume/spl that doesn't blow your speakers or hurt your hearing. It isn't complicated.

    There is no rule of thumb since there are a lot of variables as for the setting on the receiver.

    On my pre/pro, I can set the maximum volume on the scale, and the pre/pro will not go beyond that. I know how loud I can stand, I set it there. So, if for some reason the volume gets cranked up, it will not go past that setting. All is safe.
    -curtis

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    Hey Curtis!

    Okay, I think I see where you are coming from in answering this question. I need to be more specific about my potential uses of these speakers.

    I may use them in scenarios where I need to turn up the volume as loud as it can safely go for limited periods of time. This is probably why you're under the impression that I'm over-thinking the volume control. Haha! I can see that now. You're probably like "what is this dudes deal? It's just a volume knob, man, geeze." I see. lol That's funny!

    Loud as it (AVR) can safely go. It seems to me that this AVR (assuming it isn't clipping) won't surpass the Ascends' safe limits. Again, assuming it isn't clipping. That's what I'm looking for. The highest volume setting where clipping is still very unlikely to occur assuming that my source is digital (HDMI/blu-ray/etc).

    Okay, I'm thinking about what all you've said here... yep. You can set 0db to what you want, blowing speakers and eardrums is bad, attenuators attenuate, and the answer probably won't be very complicated. Amen brother. I agree with you on all points.

    Here is where I think I need to focus: " It may go beyond +15, it is just the available range set by the manufacturer."

    So, what you're telling me here is... call Yamaha and report back?

    What do you mean by "It may go beyond +15"? I'm not understanding here. Thanks again Curtis! I appreciate your input, no pun.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Understanding relative volume and 0db on my receiver.

    I think you are asking, what the maximum non-clipped volume setting would be from a digital source (Bluray disc). If your receiver power rating level is 150W/channel for the nominal impedance of the S-2EX, that is safely under the permitted peak power for the speakers. In that case, it is all about the exact specs for your receiver: at what volume knob setting does it drive its power amp stage to clipping, from a "full" digital signal. I'm not sure anyone here has those specs for your receiver.

    It IS possible that "0" does correspond to that (but not assured).

    It that were true, it would mean that right at "0", a maximum digital signal peak could just reach to the start of clipping.

    If that were true, it would be 'safe' to run right up to "0" without expecting to damage anything.

    If that is true, then why would a manufacturer provide a "+" range to the control?

    If I was the designer, I would do so to permit getting more volume on signals that are recorded at less than digital maximum (or with analog inputs at lower voltages).

    That's all I have.

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