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Thread: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

  1. #11
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    Mar 2004
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    SouthWest of Cleveland
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    1,924

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Mapleshade.....was looking at those myself, but a little steep for my pocket book.

    Database, I had a similar experience with another product that follows the same principles as the platforms/footers. Small brass points placed between my Sierra-2's and the metal stands. They are designed to allow the vibrational energy from the speakers, or any component placed on them, to flow from the equipment and, ultimately, to ground plane. By removing this from the speakers it has, in my system, done much the same as what you describe. Efficiency & dynamics have exploded, etc., etc. I do not need to turn the volume up as high now, but it sounds so good I can't help but crank it.

    Another recent tweak I did which has yielded very nice benefits was changing the crossover (low pass) filter settings for my Rythmik sub. My Halo P5 pre has built-in hi & low pass analog filters. They are both sloped at 12db/octave. I set the low pass to bypass so the sub gets the full range signal, and switched the filter setting on the Rythmik to 80Hz/24db, so double the rolloff slope for anything over 80Hz to it. This has tightened up and added definition to the bass that was not there. There are times when the sound is so startling that I have literally jumped in my seat!

    Anyway, Database, Glad you are enjoying your system. I am at a point with mine that I have to nit-pick to find anything I want to "improve", which is not easy.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Waterloo, Il
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    17

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Mapleshade has quite an esoteric product line ......
    But they and WildChild have some very good CDs.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    15

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by racrawford65 View Post
    database - curious where you got the maple platforms...mapleshade?
    Yes, they are from Mapleshade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Mapleshade.....was looking at those myself, but a little steep for my pocket book.

    Database, I had a similar experience with another product that follows the same principles as the platforms/footers. Small brass points placed between my Sierra-2's and the metal stands. They are designed to allow the vibrational energy from the speakers, or any component placed on them, to flow from the equipment and, ultimately, to ground plane. By removing this from the speakers it has, in my system, done much the same as what you describe. Efficiency & dynamics have exploded, etc., etc. I do not need to turn the volume up as high now, but it sounds so good I can't help but crank it.

    Another recent tweak I did which has yielded very nice benefits was changing the crossover (low pass) filter settings for my Rythmik sub. My Halo P5 pre has built-in hi & low pass analog filters. They are both sloped at 12db/octave. I set the low pass to bypass so the sub gets the full range signal, and switched the filter setting on the Rythmik to 80Hz/24db, so double the rolloff slope for anything over 80Hz to it. This has tightened up and added definition to the bass that was not there. There are times when the sound is so startling that I have literally jumped in my seat!

    Anyway, Database, Glad you are enjoying your system. I am at a point with mine that I have to nit-pick to find anything I want to "improve", which is not easy.
    That's great info, thanks. I've definitely tweaked crossovers a lot, and the miniDSP DDRC-88a with bass management plugin offers tons of flexibility for crossovers. I'm currently using a 50hz BW24dB LPF/HPF slope for my front 3 speakers crossed with a pair of Rythmik FV18s, they had the best response after measuring in REW. But I'm sure the optimum crossover will always depend on the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjkruk View Post
    Mapleshade has quite an esoteric product line ......
    But they and WildChild have some very good CDs.
    Their product line definitely is unconventional, and so is a lot of their advice (https://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php). I did try their advice on speaker placement before buying any of their products and it did improve my system quite a bit, but part of that was because my initial placement of mains was not great for stereo in the first place (L and R were not spaced far enough from each other and too far away from MLP).

    They seem to be pretty controversial in general -- some people swear by them, while others glance at their website and dismiss them outright as audiophile snake oil. I am starting to see why, as I've been on both sides of the fence now. Even after hearing their maple platform upgrade work on my system firsthand, they have several products that seem ridiculous to me. But I've learned not to dismiss anything outright, at the very least.
    Last edited by database; 06-12-2019 at 05:40 PM.
    Ascend Acoustics LX w/ Mapleshade 2" Maple Platforms ・ Sierra RAAL Horizon w/ Mapleshade 4" Center Channel Maple Platform ・ Sierra LX x4
    Rythmik FV18 subwoofer x2
    Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 w/ Dirac Live ・ Hypex NC400
    JVC DLA-X790R ・ Stewart Cima w/ StudioTek 130 G4

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    SoCal
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    265

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    I'm one who just glanced at their website and saw a bunch of audiophile snake oil!

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    SouthWest of Cleveland
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    1,924

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Snake Oil!.jpg

    I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse!
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

    I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

    What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

    Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!
    Last edited by Bghead8che; 06-18-2019 at 08:51 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    You're sitting 3 inches above the acoustic center, right?

    At 10 feet away, that three inches is just a degree or two - well within the recommended +/- 10 degrees.

    Other movements of the speaker (a few inches closer to or farther from a wall, toeing in more or less) will make a much bigger difference.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    15

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
    I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

    I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

    What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

    Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!
    Why not test both out? In both configurations you should be inside of the vertical listening window that Dave mentioned, so you couldn't go too wrong with either - I think it would come down to preference. My personal preference would be use the stands to have the speakers be slightly above rather than sightly below ear level, this can give you the effect of the musicians standing on a live stage in front of you when listening to music.

    I do agree with above that other factors like distance from front wall, toe in, and the speaker distance from each other will make a bigger difference. In my system, I have the speakers several feet away from the front wall (to get more depth in imaging). I use slight toe in so that the left tower points one chair-width to the left of my center chair, and the right tower points one chair-width to the right of my center chair - with this amount of toe-in I got just the right amount of focus on the voice while still getting a live sound. And I've spaced the towers quite wide, wider than an equilateral triangle, to get a large, room-filling soundstage. These arrangements might not be optimal in your room, or match your preferences perfectly, but if you're looking for something to start with you could try it and adjust as needed.
    Ascend Acoustics LX w/ Mapleshade 2" Maple Platforms ・ Sierra RAAL Horizon w/ Mapleshade 4" Center Channel Maple Platform ・ Sierra LX x4
    Rythmik FV18 subwoofer x2
    Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 w/ Dirac Live ・ Hypex NC400
    JVC DLA-X790R ・ Stewart Cima w/ StudioTek 130 G4

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    191

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    As already mentioned, you seem to be above the center, and 3" at 10' is not much (but also not nothing). You can also try 'shimming' up under the front edge of the towers (about 1/4"?) to aim them at your ear more directly and see whether that makes a difference to you. Similarly, you can add the stands and shim the back up (~1/8"?). To check that, easily, hold a flashlight against your ear and shine it at the face of the speaker. Assuming you do not have flat black finish, where on the speaker does it reflect straight back at you? That is the point that is 'normal' to your ear.
    Last edited by jimb; 06-21-2019 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Correction of description reversal up/down

  10. #20
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    Aug 2003
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    USA
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    5,538

    Default Re: RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
    I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

    I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

    What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

    Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!
    I believe you are sitting 3" above the acoustic center. Vertically, we recommend a +/- 10 degree window from the acoustic center. That means ideally, your ears should be within 10 degrees above and 10 degrees below. At 10ft back, and 3" above, that puts your ears at a vertical angle of only 1.5 degrees. You are in the ideal vertical sweet spot of the speaker, no concerns....

    Any changes you make in vertical positioning that are audibly noticeable would not be due to your being 3" above, but due to room acoustics themselves. No human can hear a difference from 0 degrees to 1.5 degrees...
    Last edited by davef; 06-21-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

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