Rythmik or Hsu?

[chas]

I have a 5.2 340SE LCR/170SE setup in a large basement (8000+ cu/ft) with dual SVS 12-inch subs. I'm looking to upgrade to dual 15's and would love FV15HP's but want to cap the budget at $2000. The FVX15's would fit in the budget but I worry about them having "only" 400-watt amps.

I've been looking at the Hsu VTF3 Mk5 which seem to offer a lot for the money and have 600-watt amps. Any thoughts on how the FXV would compare to the VTF3.5 in a larger room? I don't listen anywhere near reference levels but would like more feel to LFE and better detail in music than I'm getting with the PB12-NSD's.

[Bruce Watson]

Any thoughts on how the FXV would compare to the VTF3.5 in a larger room? I don't listen anywhere near reference levels but would like more feel to LFE and better detail in music than I'm getting with the PB12-NSD's.

First, I would *always* take a servo sub over a non-servo sub. A servo may be more money, but you're getting a bargain. That's not brand specific, but of the two brands you reference, Rythmik makes the servo subs. Just sayin'.

I've got a pair of the LVX12s in a room that's about 13.5'x21'x8'. L/C/R are Sierra-2s. Surrounds are Sierra-1s. Driven by an old Denon x4000.

When I bought the LVX12s I wasn't sure they'd be enough. I was considerably wrong, they are way enough for what I need. Enough to shake the walls, couch, etc. when they need to, but I've never heard them work for it. That said, I very seldom watch anything above a MV of -20dB. Once in a great while -15dB.

Even my wife loves these subs (and the Sierras too). All those little things like car door slams, books dropped on a desk, distant thunder, etc. add a realism that's hard to explain to people who don't have subs. These LVX12s do excellent work here, as well as the big stuff of buildings collapsing, bombs going off, etc.

That said, the 12" subs aren't going to dig as deep as the 15s and 18s. And they aren't going to play as loud -- if really need to hit reference levels, you'll need roughly 120dB to 130dB at 20 Hz (depending on who you believe) but if you're playing that loudly I've already left the house. But you'll be paying a lot for that last bit at the very bottom, and those last few dB of loudness. A lot of people say it's worth it. Clearly I'm not one of them. Oh well.

The first thing to ask is how big is the room? And is it sealed or open plan to the rest of the house?

[chas]

The first thing to ask is how big is the room? And is it sealed or open plan to the rest of the house?

The room is quite large (about 8000 cu/ft). It's in the basement and there is an open stairwell leading up. There is a door at the top of the stairs but the room is definitely not 'sealed'. I realize the space is large and open and I will never have anything near reference-level bass in a sub-2k budget. But like you I almost never push past the -20dB to -15dB range and I'm looking for noticeable improvement and not perfection. The servo does interest me as I would like more detailed bass with music.

[Bruce Watson]

The room is quite large (about 8000 cu/ft). It's in the basement and there is an open stairwell leading up. There is a door at the top of the stairs but the room is definitely not 'sealed'. I realize the space is large and open and I will never have anything near reference-level bass in a sub-2k budget. But like you I almost never push past the -20dB to -15dB range and I'm looking for noticeable improvement and not perfection. The servo does interest me as I would like more detailed bass with music.

Big spaces tend to like bigger subs. OTOH, bigger spaces tend to have less problems with room modes.

You might want to call and talk to Dave. If you give him specifics about your room and arrangement, I'm willing to bet that he can give you a specific path toward sub happiness within your budget.

My own thoughts, for what little they are worth, is that the pair of HVX15s you referenced in the OP will probably do just fine for your needs. It helps that Rythmik has their "try it in your own room and ship them back if you don't like them" program which takes a lot of the risk out of trying them out.

One of the joys of servo subs is their considerably lower distortion compared to non-servo designs. This gives you better detail for music, and makes integration with your mains very easy. It also means that they don't color the sound from the mains much at all. When I added mine to my Sierras, the whole system continued to sound exactly like the Sierras, but cleaner (since the subs were doing the heavy lifting), and with the Sierra's suddenly able to effortlessly reach down to 20 Hz when they needed to. All of these are good things.

And I wouldn't put too much stock in the size of a sub's amplifier. If you have to compare specs, probably better to compare 20 Hz output numbers than amplifier sizes.

[chas]

Thanks Bruce - appreciate your input.

[Mag_Neato]

I'll add my $0.02........

I went through the same decision.....Hsu vs Rythmik for a big open space. I was on a set budget. I have owned a sealed 12" Rythmik for years I use in my music-only system, so I already knew I couldn't go wrong with them, but I was curious about the Hsu at near the same price point. In the end I had to go with what I trusted. I got dual LV12F's, the updated version of the LV12R, only diff is this is front ported.
Although it may be rated at lower power than the Hsu, it has more than enough output for the room and is never a one note band due to the Direct Servo circuit, and it hits low.

Hope this helps!

[chas]

I went through the same decision.....Hsu vs Rythmik for a big open space. I was on a set budget. I have owned a sealed 12" Rythmik for years I use in my music-only system, so I already knew I couldn't go wrong with them, but I was curious about the Hsu at near the same price point. In the end I had to go with what I trusted. I got dual LV12F's, the updated version of the LV12R, only diff is this is front ported.
Although it may be rated at lower power than the Hsu, it has more than enough output for the room and is never a one note band due to the Direct Servo circuit, and it hits low.

Hope this helps!

Very helpful, thanks. How large is your space?

[Mag_Neato]

Very helpful, thanks. How large is your space?

About 18' x 20' and open to the kitchen/dining room. Has a vaulted ceiling.

[davef]

I have a 5.2 340SE LCR/170SE setup in a large basement (8000+ cu/ft) with dual SVS 12-inch subs. I'm looking to upgrade to dual 15's and would love FV15HP's but want to cap the budget at $2000. The FVX15's would fit in the budget but I worry about them having "only" 400-watt amps.

I've been looking at the Hsu VTF3 Mk5 which seem to offer a lot for the money and have 600-watt amps. Any thoughts on how the FXV would compare to the VTF3.5 in a larger room? I don't listen anywhere near reference levels but would like more feel to LFE and better detail in music than I'm getting with the PB12-NSD's.

Hi Chas,

It is very important to understand that subwoofer amplifier power is a useless specification when comparing subwoofers that use different woofers. Efficiency from one woofer to another can vary dramatically -- HSU tend to use higher mass woofers compared to Rythmik.

Here is an example, can you guess which will have higher overall output:

Subwoofer with a 1000 watt amp using a woofer with a sensitivity of 83dB

or

Subwoofer with a 400 watt amp using a woofer with a sensitivity of 90dB...

Certainly the first one looks better for marketing purposes... but.....

[chas]

Hi Chas,

It is very important to understand that subwoofer amplifier power is a useless specification when comparing subwoofers that use different woofers. Efficiency from one woofer to another can vary dramatically -- HSU tend to use higher mass woofers compared to Rythmik.

Here is an example, can you guess which will have higher overall output:

Subwoofer with a 1000 watt amp using a woofer with a sensitivity of 83dB

or

Subwoofer with a 400 watt amp using a woofer with a sensitivity of 90dB...

Certainly the first one looks better for marketing purposes... but.....

Well that's an eye opening post...something I was not considering before. Thanks for pointing out something that is probably obvious to many but missed by me!