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Thread: 120 HZ crossover?

  1. #1
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    Default 120 HZ crossover?

    I recently bought a pair of Sierra towers and am quite happy with their performance. When listening in stereo the detail and the imaging are excellent. However there is a null at 120 hz that makes the speakers sound bright and thin. There just seems to be a lack of warmth in the sound. When I switch to all channels stereo this was no longer the case but the imaging wasn't as good and the bass is a bit boomy. Listing to music is the only time this is in the issue. It doesn't bother me during movies. Currently I have all of the speakers crossed over at 80 hz. Would raising the crossover to 120 hz possibly possibly fix the null? And if so would it cause too much localization of the sub? I know I will need to experiment to see what sounds best to me. Just trying to get other people's thoughts of the situation.
    Andrew
    -------------------------

    TV: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55ST30 55-Inch 1080p 3D Plasma
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR706, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2, Blu Ray: Sony BDP-N460
    Fronts/Center/Surrounds: Sierra Towers Nrt, Sierra-1, HTM-200
    Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK-4

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    The suckout at 120hz might be resolved with a slight change in place or room treatments. Are they an option?

    I would definitely try raising the crossover. I don't think it will solve the problem, bit it can help.
    -curtis

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinggimp82 View Post
    I recently bought a pair of Sierra towers and am quite happy with their performance. When listening in stereo the detail and the imaging are excellent. However there is a null at 120 hz that makes the speakers sound bright and thin. There just seems to be a lack of warmth in the sound. When I switch to all channels stereo this was no longer the case but the imaging wasn't as good and the bass is a bit boomy. Listing to music is the only time this is in the issue. It doesn't bother me during movies. Currently I have all of the speakers crossed over at 80 hz. Would raising the crossover to 120 hz possibly possibly fix the null? And if so would it cause too much localization of the sub? I know I will need to experiment to see what sounds best to me. Just trying to get other people's thoughts of the situation.
    Have you taken measurements to confirm the null? Typically, a null at 120Hz is due to floor bounce or the "Allison Effect" but it shouldn't disappear when changing listening modes on your receiver, unless something is odd with Auto-EQ.

    Are you using Audyssey? If yes, I would suggest going through the Audyssey measurement process again and be sure to use Audyssey's recommended microphone placement for each measurement.

    http://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyss...up%20Guide.pdf
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    The suckout at 120hz might be resolved with a slight change in place or room treatments. Are they an option?

    I would definitely try raising the crossover. I don't think it will solve the problem, bit it can help.
    Placement is pretty limited for me. I can move each speaker left and right a few inches. And forward or back. Right now the speakers are roughly 18 from the front wall.
    Andrew
    -------------------------

    TV: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55ST30 55-Inch 1080p 3D Plasma
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR706, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2, Blu Ray: Sony BDP-N460
    Fronts/Center/Surrounds: Sierra Towers Nrt, Sierra-1, HTM-200
    Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK-4

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Have you taken measurements to confirm the null? Typically, a null at 120Hz is due to floor bounce or the "Allison Effect" but it shouldn't disappear when changing listening modes on your receiver, unless something is odd with Auto-EQ.

    Are you using Audyssey? If yes, I would suggest going through the Audyssey measurement process again and be sure to use Audyssey's recommended microphone placement for each measurement.

    http://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyss...up%20Guide.pdf
    I have taken measurements to confirm the null. It's at least down 10 decibels from the other measurements near that frequency. Yes I have Audyssey. I will try running the calibration again with those microphone placement. Also what exactly is the Allison Effect? I've looked it up but could not really understand what it meant.
    Andrew
    -------------------------

    TV: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55ST30 55-Inch 1080p 3D Plasma
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR706, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2, Blu Ray: Sony BDP-N460
    Fronts/Center/Surrounds: Sierra Towers Nrt, Sierra-1, HTM-200
    Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK-4

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinggimp82 View Post
    Placement is pretty limited for me. I can move each speaker left and right a few inches. And forward or back. Right now the speakers are roughly 18 from the front wall.
    And your listening position -- can you move that as well? Sometimes all it takes is a little movement of the speakers and the listening position. 120 Hz is interestingly high for a null in my experience. But every room is different.
    "If it sounds good, it is good." -- Duke Ellington

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    You may consider and "override" of Audyssey and see what happens. In my HT space (where I listen to music on occasion) Audyssey gets me close, but I need a bit of manual tweaking (in the low end) to make up for what doesn't sound right to me.
    At the end of the day your ears have a preference and should be happy with what you're listening to.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinggimp82 View Post
    I have taken measurements to confirm the null. It's at least down 10 decibels from the other measurements near that frequency. Yes I have Audyssey. I will try running the calibration again with those microphone placement. Also what exactly is the Allison Effect? I've looked it up but could not really understand what it meant.
    Another test you should try is to turn the subwoofer off completely and run the speakers full range. This way you can be sure the suckout is not being caused by a phase issue with the sub.

    The Allison Effect represents the interaction between speakers and nearby large boundaries. Depending on the distance to these boundaries, certain frequencies will be cancelled (1/4 wavelength distance away) while others will be amplified (1/2 wavelength distance away)

    I suspect though that this is more of an issue with Audyssey since when properly run, Audyssey will correct for this.
    .
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinggimp82 View Post
    Placement is pretty limited for me. I can move each speaker left and right a few inches. And forward or back. Right now the speakers are roughly 18 from the front wall.
    If the back of the speakers are 18" from the wall behind them, this places the woofers at approx 28" from the wall behind them. 28" represents a wavelength of ~ 480Hz. 1/4 of this wavelength = 120Hz, thus cancellation at 120Hz....
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 120 HZ crossover?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If the back of the speakers are 18" from the wall behind them, this places the woofers at approx 28" from the wall behind them. 28" represents a wavelength of ~ 480Hz. 1/4 of this wavelength = 120Hz, thus cancellation at 120Hz....
    Would you suggest I move the speakers forward or back? How far would you suggest moving them?
    Andrew
    -------------------------

    TV: Panasonic VIERA TC-P55ST30 55-Inch 1080p 3D Plasma
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR706, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2, Blu Ray: Sony BDP-N460
    Fronts/Center/Surrounds: Sierra Towers Nrt, Sierra-1, HTM-200
    Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK-4

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