Bigger Ascend Towers

[surroundnewbie]

This is definitely a worthy discussion and the input I am receiving is very valuable.

I'm a big fan of side mounted driver designs. I recently decided on a pair of Rega RS5 and they are slim but have great low end with 7" side drivers (passive). Are they the most accurate speakers? No, but they are definitely among the most fun and engaging I've heard. I still run a sub with them but I love how they fill out the mid-bass.

I definitely think it's a great topic!

[Blutarsky]

My Genesis speakers had two 15" self amplified side firing woofers in each speaker which were adjustable for hi pass, lo pass, gain, and phase. I was able to integrate them well.
Now, I am not suggesting this large for Ascend, but the self amplified concept with adjustments is a way of doing this.

Maybe side firing helps with integration and placement?

Rock on!

[surroundnewbie]

There are two reasons that I can come up with.

1. Asthetic reasons, for not wanting to have subs in the room, yet want to get as much bass as possible. But, okay giving up performance.
2. Not having anywhere in the room to put subwoofer(s).

But, the reasons are not based on economically getting the best possible bass.

I can think of a third reason: simply wanting a 2.0 system. I think the argument that "a sub is the way to go" is silly, if the person simply does not want a sub, period. Are all 3-way, full range speakers from 20-50 years ago now worthless? Maybe they are, I don't know, but I doubt it. I auditioned some very well regarded full sized towers in the 2-3K range and they had lovely mids and highs and detail but no real guts. For HT subs are required, but for everything else they should be optional. I wish more effort would go into low end frequency innovation in speakers. Just my two cents.

[kongar]

I wouldn’t buy them.

My towers sound great and they play very loud in my large room. My pair of rythmic subs took a long time to place properly and integrate, and if they were forced to be in the tower cabinets, I’d have to deal with room nulls and issues I’ve already “fixed.” Assuming there was no quality loss, the only thing left would be decibels - and I simply don’t need it. The towers play loud enough in a large room to cause hearing loss.

The push forward should be about even better quality sounding speakers at affordable internet direct pricing - that’s ascend’s strong point and they should stick to it.

My opinion...

[jjackkrash]

I feel it is important to state that we would not be able to approach Rythmik subwoofer bass performance in a passive speaker. The advantages a powered sub has over a passive speaker are too numerous to mention and achieving a true -3dB at 20Hz in a passive speaker is extremely problematic and expensive.

In addition, one of the biggest hits will be in efficiency - you can't have a passive speaker with an honest 90dB sensitivity spec (anechoic) with near full range bass, unless the speaker cabinet is HUGE - and that presents a host of other problems....

This is definitely a worthy discussion and the input I am receiving is very valuable.

My vote would be for bigger drivers if doing so increased efficiency/sensitivity and output in the mid-bass range and up and at the same time kept the speakers accurate on and off axis and smooth through the crossover points.

I personally would never give up having separate stacks of powered subs, but view more sensitivity and output as a plus from 60Hz on up.

[ematthews]

Now that I re-read the thread...

What is the argument against the use of subwoofers in a music setup? I am not clear on that.

Good discussion.

For me. It's the blending of the sub and speaker. Depending on the recorded material it seems I either have to turn it up or down at times. I like the fact of keeping things simple and not distracting me from the music time experience. A simple 2.0 system where the mains can dig deeper can have a really nice balanced sound. Maybe I am not good at set up after 8 years of being into this hobby. But my OCD keeps me adjusting my sub. I also don't have the best rooms in my house to help me.

[ematthews]

I feel it is important to state that we would not be able to approach Rythmik subwoofer bass performance in a passive speaker. The advantages a powered sub has over a passive speaker are too numerous to mention and achieving a true -3dB at 20Hz in a passive speaker is extremely problematic and expensive.

In addition, one of the biggest hits will be in efficiency - you can't have a passive speaker with an honest 90dB sensitivity spec (anechoic) with near full range bass, unless the speaker cabinet is HUGE - and that presents a host of other problems....

This is definitely a worthy discussion and the input I am receiving is very valuable.

Dave.. So going with a bigger cabinet, two 8in bass drivers with maybe a bigger mid and RAAL tweeter wouldn't duplicate the Sierra sound on a larger scale? I have a hard time believing that a lot of other manufactures do this but only their smaller offerings create the best sound. This is what I am gathering from some of the replies.

[surroundnewbie]

A RAAL tower with integrated side firing rhythmik sub? You could call them the Ascend Rockies--bc they rock so hard AND knock out the competition! 😀

[Bruce Watson]

So going with a bigger cabinet, two 8in bass drivers with maybe a bigger mid and RAAL tweeter wouldn't duplicate the Sierra sound on a larger scale?

I'm not Dave, but I think that is what he's telling you, yes.

I have a hard time believing that a lot of other manufactures do this but only their smaller offerings create the best sound. This is what I am gathering from some of the replies.

I think what you're missing is the laws of physics. It's not linear. The bottom end is much more difficult to deal with than the mids and highs.

Some reasons for that include that in real rooms, the optimal location for the speakers that produce the mids and highs are not the same as the optimal location for the speakers that produce the lows. The reason for this is that the mids and higher frequencies are what establish the sound stage and let you localize instruments and singers in that sound stage. Most people can't localize any sound below around 80 Hz, so it doesn't matter from the sound stage point of view where the subs are. At the same time, all real rooms suffer from room mode problems which are (usually) profoundly effected by the location of the subs, but not so much by the location of the mids/highs. And the location directly under the mid/high driver is not helpful in mitigating problems with room modes. Not at all helpful.

So while I get what you want and why you want it, you should know that the laws of physics aren't in your favor and in fact work against you.

And I haven't even touched on passive vs. active drivers, and why active is so much better for subs. And why servo subs are so much better than non-servo subs, and that servo systems require an integrated amp (active) to work.

It's true that other suppliers will give you what you say you want. And it's true that their smaller offerings that separate their mids/highs from their subs usually sound better. And now I've explained as best I can (flawed as I know it is) why that is.

I think Dave is heading in exactly the right direction with his designs so far. I look forward to where he puts his energy going forward.

[ematthews]

I'm not Dave, but I think that is what he's telling you, yes.



I think what you're missing is the laws of physics. It's not linear. The bottom end is much more difficult to deal with than the mids and highs.

Some reasons for that include that in real rooms, the optimal location for the speakers that produce the mids and highs are not the same as the optimal location for the speakers that produce the lows. The reason for this is that the mids and higher frequencies are what establish the sound stage and let you localize instruments and singers in that sound stage. Most people can't localize any sound below around 80 Hz, so it doesn't matter from the sound stage point of view where the subs are. At the same time, all real rooms suffer from room mode problems which are (usually) profoundly effected by the location of the subs, but not so much by the location of the mids/highs. And the location directly under the mid/high driver is not helpful in mitigating problems with room modes. Not at all helpful.

So while I get what you want and why you want it, you should know that the laws of physics aren't in your favor and in fact work against you.

And I haven't even touched on passive vs. active drivers, and why active is so much better for subs. And why servo subs are so much better than non-servo subs, and that servo systems require an integrated amp (active) to work.

It's true that other suppliers will give you what you say you want. And it's true that their smaller offerings that separate their mids/highs from their subs usually sound better. And now I've explained as best I can (flawed as I know it is) why that is.

I think Dave is heading in exactly the right direction with his designs so far. I look forward to where he puts his energy going forward.

Fantastic reply. Very informative and I appreciate it. This could potentially save me some money.