Upgrade to F18, or second LV12R?

[kdaq]

I have a 20 x 10 x 7.5 (1500 cu ft) room. I (will soon) have Sierra-2 LCR, and HTM-200SE surrounds. This room is for both 5.1 HT and 2.1 music.

Today, I have a single LV12R. I love it, and it adds a lot to both movies and music. I don't have much flexibility in placement, unfortunately. There's room for subs behind my L/R speakers, no bigger than an F18 each.

Factors that matter to me:

1) Capability below 20Hz for ambiance and dynamics in music. The LV12R is good enough to let you "hear the room" with the right recording. But I can't help but wonder if there's more I'm missing.

2) More slam and awe. I want accurate reproduction, but sometimes, who doesn't want to just giggle like a kid?

3) Address room modes. Bass response varies greatly depending on where you sit in the room.

4) Think long-term. I'm prone to upgradeitis. If I get another LV12R I bet I'll love it, and yet still wonder if I shouldn't go bigger.

I'm not sure if any of these are higher priority than others. Talk sense into me!

[SunByrne]

Second LV12R. Getting a bigger and more powerful sub is cool and all, but it won't do anything to address room modes. Given that your room isn't huge, I think two smaller subs will give you much better real results than one bigger one.

[kdaq]

Thanks SunByrne.

I'm not sure what I prioritize higher. Also, since I'm pretty limited in sub placement, a second LV12R isn't a sure thing for addressing modes. Gotta admit, my heart is with the bigger sub. Just can't help but wonder what that beast can do!

[kdaq]

I pored over some details on Rythmik's site, and now I wonder about a third option.

What about upgrading to dual LVX12s? These are designed to be able to reach lower than the LV12R, which is one of my objectives.

I'm having trouble finding impressions of the LVX12 vs other options in Rythmik's lineup. Anyone have first-hand experience?

[Bruce Watson]

I'm having trouble finding impressions of the LVX12 vs other options in Rythmik's lineup. Anyone have first-hand experience?

I've got a pair of LVX12s running in a system with Sierra-2s (LCR) and Sierra-1s (surround), with an old Denon AVR-4000. Room in 13.5 x 20 x 8 feet. Probably 80% HT, 20% music.

I went through more or less this same thought process years ago, coming to the conclusion that I wanted a pair of subs to help handle room modes. And I wanted servo subs because of the accuracy and low distortion. When Rythmik finally produced the LVX12s, I bought a very early pair (first two? IDK). With my restrictions the bigger subs would not physically fit, but the LVX12s do (one barely).

I couldn't be happier. These subs really work well. Interestingly, they make the other speakers sound better in the bargain -- off loading the heavy lifting below 80 Hz really makes the Sierra-2s shine.

Here's the thing. What you get from a bigger sub is higher max. levels, and lower min. frequency. Unless you tend to listen to things at very high levels, the higher max levels thing is pretty meaningless to you. And there's some studies that show that people just aren't comfortable listening at reference levels (0 dB master volume) in small rooms. I know I'm not. About the loudest I can stand is -10 dB, most movies I listen at -20 dB. So having the ability to play even louder would be completely wasted on me.

As to playing lower, humans in general have great difficulty hearing down to 20 Hz. Hardly anyone can actually hear tonally down to 16 Hz (the 32 foot pipe in a conventional pipe organ). By that point the fundamental is perceived as vistibular disturbance. That is, it generates in your body that feeling of awe or dread. What most people get from that bottom note of a pipe organ then is the 32 Hz first overtone, plus a feeling of awe. Which is... the point. Yes? That's why they churches have them.

Below 16 Hz, it just gets weirder. Vistibular responses continue, but mostly what you get is shaking of the environment. Lots of guys are really impressed that they can shake the pictures on the walls, dishes in the kitchen, etc. But really, is this important to you? And again, you'll only get this if you're playing really loud.

I'm thinking owning huge subwoofers that require dedicated 20 amp circuits is like owning a muscle car. For the three or four times a year you can actually open it up it's fun (for a few seconds), but for the rest of the year you're stuck in traffic and in stop light hell with everyone else. What's this really worth to ya?

Anyway, I put my money where my mouth is and bought the pair of LVX12s. And I have to say, I was right. For me. That doesn't mean I'll be right for you. Because with subs, it's really clear that YMMV.

[kdaq]

Really great and thorough response, thanks Bruce!

I like the feeling of awe from sub-audible stuff, such as 16Hz. It sounds like the LVX12 can pull off a little of that though, no? Beyond that point, I have no interest in shaking stuff just for the sake of being able to.

It's easy to get lost in wondering, would a sealed 18" aluminum sub be tighter and more musical in audible frequencies? Or maybe the smaller 12" paper cone, with its lower moving mass would be tighter, despite the ported enclosure. It would be awesome to be able to audition a bunch all at once!

[mikesiskav]

Just to throw a wrench into things, I saw on AVSforums, both Brian and Enrico mentioned a paper based 18" driver option that they were investigating which would provide 3dB more output in the upper bass (were you get the "slam" effect) than the current model. At this point, I've seen very little info about this product and it may or may not see the light of day.

[kdaq]

HAH! I was just wondering if such a thing existed. I'd expect that paper isn't typically used on such huge woofers, since it's not stiff enough to hold high SPL in low frequencies. Perhaps they would tune it with a frequency response closer to their smaller subs.

[mikesiskav]

If the paper woofer managed to provide 3dB higher output in the upper bass without sacrificing any low end output, that would be impressive. That would put it almost on par (output wise) with the more expensive Funk 18.0.

[kdaq]

Ah, the Funk uses a paper / carbon fibre weave, neat. Guessing if Rythmik used a similarly spiffy driver, it would raise costs. Not to mention if they needed to up the amplification.


I'm pretty intrigued by the F18 as it is today. It's overkill for my room size, which might have a chance of quelling my upgradeitis!

I just hope that it doesn't have noticeable disadvantages to the smaller subs (room modes aside).