Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

[richard12511]

There's nothing I can say here. Hey, Ascend speakers suck then. Go buy the Pioneer. I'm SURE you would be able to tell it apart from the Sierra speaker which obviously sucks. Oh look, the KEF LS50 doesn't pass the Amir test also. What a joke. Find me someone that would agree with that one. The Pioneer is better than that one also I guess. I'm sure you would be able to tell that difference the second you fire them up. Guess what. You can test those speakers in a cave and the Ascend and KEF would sound better than the Pioneers. NHT SB2. I have those speakers and they sound great but according to the great Amir they arena good. What a hack. There is not one respectable person in this field that would agree with any of Amir's assessments. Have a nice day. For the rest, check out Tharbamar on youtube. He tested the Ascend Towers and the Sierra's. Tests them by actually listening to them.

I feel like you're sensationalizing this more than it needs to be. Just because 1 Ascend speaker measured poorly doesn't mean people are saying that all Ascend speakers suck. The Sierra measured decently, and the Horizon measured great(top 10%). I would guess that the 2EX and Sierra Towers would measure at least as well as the Horizon(ie excellent).

[Shazb0t]

There's nothing I can say here. Hey, Ascend speakers suck then. Go buy the Pioneer. I'm SURE you would be able to tell it apart from the Sierra speaker which obviously sucks. Oh look, the KEF LS50 doesn't pass the Amir test also. What a joke. Find me someone that would agree with that one. The Pioneer is better than that one also I guess. I'm sure you would be able to tell that difference the second you fire them up. Guess what. You can test those speakers in a cave and the Ascend and KEF would sound better than the Pioneers. NHT SB2. I have those speakers and they sound great but according to the great Amir they arena good. What a hack. There is not one respectable person in this field that would agree with any of Amir's assessments. Have a nice day. For the rest, check out Tharbamar on youtube. He tested the Ascend Towers and the Sierra's. Tests them by actually listening to them.

I feel like you're sensationalizing this more than it needs to be. Just because 1 Ascend speaker measured poorly doesn't mean people are saying that all Ascend speakers suck. The Sierra measured decently, and the Horizon measured great(top 10%). I would guess that the 2EX and Sierra Towers would measure at least as well as the Horizon(ie excellent).

Agreed. It must be interesting knocking down all those strawmen! You've clearly personalized what was an honest attempt at discussion of legitimate measurement data to the point of it being difficult to discuss with you. The peer-reviewed audio science speaks for itself.

The Sierra Towers and Horizon appear to be fine speakers. The Sierra-2 has some distortion spikes with the smaller ribbons in a 2-way design, but appears to be competitive and comparable to similar designs. The Lunas have some issues which should be audible that need to be investigated further. No hurt feelings.

[djDANNY]

There's nothing I can say here. Hey, Ascend speakers suck then. Go buy the Pioneer. I'm SURE you would be able to tell it apart from the Sierra speaker which obviously sucks. Oh look, the KEF LS50 doesn't pass the Amir test also. What a joke. Find me someone that would agree with that one. The Pioneer is better than that one also I guess. I'm sure you would be able to tell that difference the second you fire them up. Guess what. You can test those speakers in a cave and the Ascend and KEF would sound better than the Pioneers. NHT SB2. I have those speakers and they sound great but according to the great Amir they arena good. What a hack. There is not one respectable person in this field that would agree with any of Amir's assessments. Have a nice day. For the rest, check out Tharbamar on youtube. He tested the Ascend Towers and the Sierra's. Tests them by actually listening to them.

Sounds like you should just buy the Duo. No one said to read or agree with Amir’s comments. Everyone is focusing on the measurements but you clearly do not care about how a speaker measures. In that case, just buy the Duo. Based on most personal reviews they sound great.

[RMW]

There is not one respectable person in this field that would agree with any of Amir's assessments. Have a nice day. For the rest, check out Tharbamar on youtube. He tested the Ascend Towers and the Sierra's. Tests them by actually listening to them.

This seems to be a bit of an unfair statement. If you don’t factor measurements into your decision making, that’s fine. Everyone has their own personal reasons for making a purchase. But you’re making comments without being informed. Many, many manufacturers and engineers visit and contribute to ASR, including Floyd Toole. Do you really not consider him to be respectable?

[natetg57]

Sounds like you should just buy the Duo. No one said to read or agree with Amir’s comments. Everyone is focusing on the measurements but you clearly do not care about how a speaker measures. In that case, just buy the Duo. Based on most personal reviews they sound great.

To say the Duo measures poorly is only part of the story. The Duo measures great according to Dave's measurements and poorly according to Amir. Why do so many put so much more stock into Amir's measurement? Just because it's independent? Are there any other measurements that back up his? I have the Luna's as surrounds and they sound amazing. It is a seamless transition from my 2EX front three. I also compared them side by side as fronts and enjoyed listening to them very much.

[djDANNY]

To say the Duo measures poorly is only part of the story. The Duo measures great according to Dave's measurements and poorly according to Amir. Why do so many put so much more stock into Amir's measurement? Just because it's independent? Are there any other measurements that back up his? I have the Luna's as surrounds and they sound amazing. It is a seamless transition from my 2EX front three. I also compared them side by side as fronts and enjoyed listening to them very much.

Please go back and read the entire thread for the proper context. No one here said Amir’s are right and Dave’s is wrong. We’re asking and Dave has responded that he will look into the differences. Most of us want to find out why there is a discrepancy so we can make an informed decision about the speaker. I don’t know about you but if I see a conflicting measurement that shows something doesn’t measure as well as originally shown, it gives me pause and I’m not going to consider that speaker until things are cleared up.

The beef a lot of us have is with people saying the measurements don’t matter... just listen to people’s personal reviews despite the fact that there are so many bias’es that affect them.

For surrounds the Luna’s are probably fine even if they measure the way Amir’s measurements show. I don’t have matching surrounds at all with my Sierra-2’s LCR and not once have I ever noticed them sounding out of place. I don’t know who realistically pays attention to the surrounds that closely to notice.

[natetg57]

Please go back and read the entire thread for the proper context. No one here said Amir’s are right and Dave’s is wrong. We’re asking and Dave has responded that he will look into the differences. Most of us want to find out why there is a discrepancy so we can make an informed decision about the speaker. I don’t know about you but if I see a conflicting measurement that shows something doesn’t measure as well as originally shown, it gives me pause and I’m not going to consider that speaker until things are cleared up.

The beef a lot of us have is with people saying the measurements don’t matter... just listen to people’s personal reviews despite the fact that there are so many bias’es that affect them.

For surrounds the Luna’s are probably fine even if they measure the way Amir’s measurements show. I don’t have matching surrounds at all with my Sierra-2’s LCR and not once have I ever noticed them sounding out of place. I don’t know who realistically pays attention to the surrounds that closely to notice.

I did read this thread and the whole audio science thread as well. My question probably pertains to those on the audio science thread that seem to feel that Amir's test is the final word.
I agree that measurements matter, especially purchasing a speaker online. I poured over measurements before deciding on Sierra-1s over speakers from SVS, Aperion and others. I'm picky about my surrounds blending because of the surround music that I listen to. Many sounds pan from the front to back or even image somewhere in between.

[RMW]

We’re asking and Dave has responded that he will look into the differences. Most of us want to find out why there is a discrepancy so we can make an informed decision about the speaker.

Agreed, and I think Dave had a good and fair initial response. Personally, I bought my first pair of Ascends in 2007 and have upgraded several times since then. Having spoken with Dave and Dena a few times over the years, I’ve always found them to be honest and sincere. I’m sure Dave was as surprised and puzzled as us that the Luna’s measured this way.

[Beave]

Keep in mind that the Klippel NFS gives *VERY* high resolution measurements, much more so that what we're all used to seeing from Ascend, from Stereophile, from Sound & Vision, etc.

It's like looking at an attractive face with a magnifying glass. You're gonna find flaws, no matter how attractive the face.

The resonances are always unwanted, but in this case they are very narrow (high Q). Their audibility isn't clear, and will be program dependent if audible at all.

As to the trustworthiness of Amir's Klippel measurements, he has measured a few speakers that were also measured by Harman, by Stereophile, and/or by the NRC (anechoic chamber), all with good consistency. That says that his Klippel results are more likely dependable.

[richard12511]

To say the Duo measures poorly is only part of the story. The Duo measures great according to Dave's measurements and poorly according to Amir. Why do so many put so much more stock into Amir's measurement? Just because it's independent? Are there any other measurements that back up his? I have the Luna's as surrounds and they sound amazing. It is a seamless transition from my 2EX front three. I also compared them side by side as fronts and enjoyed listening to them very much.

Amir's measurements are higher resolution and more "true" than Ascend's measurements, as he uses the Klippel NFS, which is state of the art right now. Harman uses one now too, even though they have an anechoic chamber. Also there are indeed quite a few independent anechoic measurements that match his measurements very well. I wrote this in another thread for someone who had similar questions about the NFS

"He attaches the spin file that the NFS generates at the bottom of the review, so you can download and take a look for yourself. Others on the site, like MZKM, pierre, edechamps and others download that file and use it to generate further measurements. One time edechamps(I believe) found an error with the JBL 305p, but that was with the very first review and was due to user error(learning curve).

Many of the reviews are of speakers that have been tested anechoically(or pseudo) by third parties. Examples include Neumann, @bikinpunk, napilopez, Kali, Harman, NRS, KEF, Genelec and Kieth Peterson. The fact that all those independent sources agree on the common speakers they've measured is strong evidence that Amir isn't fudging the measurements(unless you think all those people/companies are in cahoots to make only certain speakers look bad ). Go look at Erin's measurement of the S400 and compare it to the NFS measurement. Very similar, which really shows you how good Erin is, as he's doing it without a $100,000 machine.

Amir's a smart guy; and he knows he couldn't get away with fudging the measurements, as his reputation relies on them being correct. Any of those other parties would call him out as soon as he tried posting a clearly hand altered file. Actually, we've already seen such a case. Neumann and Kali called him out when he posted NFS spin data that didn't match their own internal data. Go read those threads to understand more, but they went back and forth until the explanation for the discrepancy was uncovered. In Neumann's case it was because Amir's garage was a different temperature than the Neumann anechoic chamber, and that temperature difference was enough to cause a tiny discrepancy in the data. In Kali's case, it turns out the tweeter on the sample that Amir measured was defective."

Hopefully that helps you trust the NFS more. Amir's measurements are correct. The question is why Dave's aren't. That's probably not a good way to put it, as Dave's measurements are correct, too, they're just lower resolution. You can see the same sorta batman curve if you look closely, but it's more smoothed. My guess is it's just the measurement system he uses. It's an older system, and seems to be much lower resolution. Erin(who does great independent high resolution anechoic measurements) had a good theory on ASR as why Dave's measurements may have smoothed out the port blips. Would love to see Dave reply over there to Erin's comment.

As for why you enjoy them? That's another matter. I own 10+ different speakers, and I enjoy them all to some degree, though not all of them measure well.