Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

[MDinno]

That audiosciencereview has zero credibility in my eyes. I like what Paul McGowan from PS Audio said. You can take a speaker that has the most perfect measurements and when you turn it on and listen to it it's trash and vice versa. To judge a speaker based solely on measurements is being very narrow minded and also don't forget once that speaker is in your living room all bets are off. It will measure completely differently. If you want to hear someone that tests mostly high end speakers the old fashioned way by listening check out Tharbamar on Youtube.

[Shazb0t]

That audiosciencereview has zero credibility in my eyes. I like what Paul McGowan from PS Audio said. You can take a speaker that has the most perfect measurements and when you turn it on and listen to it it's trash and vice versa. To judge a speaker based solely on measurements is being very narrow minded and also don't forget once that speaker is in your living room all bets are off. It will measure completely differently. If you want to hear someone that tests mostly high end speakers the old fashioned way by listening check out Tharbamar on Youtube.

This is the wrong mentality to bring when something is as scientifically sound and straightforward as what has been presented at ASR. I own Ascend Acoustic speakers as well, but we have to resist the urge to defend something based on brand loyalty. Quoting Paul McGowan to dismiss peer-reviewed scientific research is dubious at best.

Floyd Toole and the NRC/Harman have scientifically proven that the measurements matter. That is not really contestable. Dave also appears to be in this camp, seeing as how he attempts to make measurements available with the equipment that he has at his disposal. I hope that he can investigate and correct these issues.

[MDinno]

This is the wrong mentality to bring when something is as scientifically sound and straightforward as what has been presented at ASR. I own Ascend Acoustic speakers as well, but we have to resist the urge to defend something based on brand loyalty. Quoting Paul McGowan to dismiss peer-reviewed scientific research is dubious at best.

Floyd Toole and the NRC/Harman have scientifically proven that the measurements matter. That is not really contestable. Dave also appears to be in this camp, seeing as how he attempts to make measurements available with the equipment that he has at his disposal. I hope that he can investigate and correct these issues.

To not recommend a speaker based solely on measurements, which is what that site does, is dubious at best. It's a tool but it's not set in stone. I stand by what Paul says because there are so many factors at play when doing measurements. I'll also agree with what Gene Delasalle says at Audioholics. Many aren't audible to the human ear so it's a wash.

[Bruce Watson]

I think it’s safe to say that many (if not most) owners of Ascend products made the decision based on the published measurements.

Why would you think that?

Personally, I've never looked at "published measurements" of any audio equipment I've bought, and I'm an old guy so I've bought plenty of stuff over the decades. I've bought it all based on what I hear. I don't know anyone who professes to buy audio gear based on measurements.

So I think it's safe to say that many (if not most) owners of Ascend products made the decision base on what their own ears tell them, when using the speakers in their own rooms, being driven by their own equipment, integrated (or not) with their own subs, using their own programming (music, HT, whatever).

[djDANNY]

Why would you think that?

Personally, I've never looked at "published measurements" of any audio equipment I've bought, and I'm an old guy so I've bought plenty of stuff over the decades. I've bought it all based on what I hear. I don't know anyone who professes to buy audio gear based on measurements.

So I think it's safe to say that many (if not most) owners of Ascend products made the decision base on what their own ears tell them, when using the speakers in their own rooms, being driven by their own equipment, integrated (or not) with their own subs, using their own programming (music, HT, whatever).

To each their own. Ascend makes a big deal about how flat and neutral their speakers are (through measurements!). Go read audio forums and most of the people who are looking at the Ascend’s consider them because of how well they measure as shown on Ascend’s website. Now does that mean everyone looks at the scientific measurements and makes a purchasing decision based on that? No, but it doesn’t take much to put 2 and 2 together that Ascend specifically markets these based on them measuring well, and most owners are looking at those when choosing Ascend over other brands.

I’ve seen your posts constantly touting how the Duo “punches above its weight class”. This is just another example of the “purchasing bias” I mentioned earlier and why I don’t put too much weight into owner’s reviews anymore. I’ve just seen too many people “hear” things that aren’t true because they wanted to “hear” things that way because they spent a lot of money on the speaker. We all want to feel good about our speakers that we buy, but let’s also have some objectivity please.

I hope there’s a good explanation to the measurement discrepancy and I hope it doesn’t make a big audible difference, but I’ll always trust measurements to speak to a speaker’s potential versus an owner who is showing bias in what is “heard”.

[djDANNY]

That audiosciencereview has zero credibility in my eyes. I like what Paul McGowan from PS Audio said. You can take a speaker that has the most perfect measurements and when you turn it on and listen to it it's trash and vice versa. To judge a speaker based solely on measurements is being very narrow minded and also don't forget once that speaker is in your living room all bets are off. It will measure completely differently. If you want to hear someone that tests mostly high end speakers the old fashioned way by listening check out Tharbamar on Youtube.

Ignore the commentary in that review and ask yourself this: If Ascend posted those frequency response graphs from ASR on their website, would you have still considered buying the Duo? If yes, then go ahead and purchase. It’s your money and your decision. I just don’t know how many people would personally buy a speaker they knew didn’t measure very well, but maybe I’m wrong. I just know what I would do.

Edit: I’m glad Dave said he would look into this. I firmly believe he is trying to get the best sound out to his customers within his design requirements and if there are new measurements that brought out issues that were previously unknown, I’m confident Dave will try to make sure things are addressed. I’m not trying to bash Ascend here as I really like my Sierra-2’s.

[Shazb0t]

To not recommend a speaker based solely on measurements, which is what that site does, is dubious at best. It's a tool but it's not set in stone. I stand by what Paul says because there are so many factors at play when doing measurements. I'll also agree with what Gene Delasalle says at Audioholics. Many aren't audible to the human ear so it's a wash.

I think it's fair to not recommend a speaker where the port resonance exceeds the actual woofer response well into the midrange. That's not going to sound good no matter how much you listen to Paul McGowan wax poetic about audio magic. Obviously this isn't an audio science based forum, I don't know the leeway that I'm afforded in discussing hard evidence as to why I don't agree with what you believe, so I'll leave it at that. I encourage you to do some reading on Dr. Floyd Toole and audio research conducted at the NRC and Harman. Gene Dellasala also appears to be a major proponent of the research that we're talking about, I encourage you to read more from their website as well:

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...r-measurements
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...measurements-2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OMlK7d5QM8

As an aside, to answer the OP's question, definitively go with the Horizon for a center.

[Bruce Watson]

Sorry -- didn't mean to put you into "defensive mode". I've never been the most articulate person. My bad.

What I was trying to get to (I'll try again, and probably fail again, c'est la vie) is that speaker measurements, by their nature, try to take out everything but the speaker. But real speakers don't work in a vacuum (literally, and figuratively). A real speaker's "sound" changes markedly depending in the environment you operate it in. Measurements will change based on things as small and generally ignored as relative humidity changes for example. And they will certainly change based on reflections from the listening room walls, ceiling, floor, and furnishings.

Beyond that, they will change based on what the speaker is being used for. For example, consider a "simple" recording of a solo acoustic piano. One of the things that makes humans respond like they do to piano is the rich and complex overtones. Strings vibrating, making the strings next to them vibrate in sympathy, making the sound board vibrate, and the case, and the harp.... I'm just saying the sound you get out is more than the note that's being played, and that that sound is complex.

When you play this sound through a speaker, you similarly add overtones from the speaker elements as they "push the air", the cabinet (no matter how well designed or how over built), and of course the walls, ceiling, and floor surrounding the speaker. All of this colors the sound. Sometimes strongly, sometimes faintly, but always. And sadly, not often all that linearly.

All of this to get to my point which is that pianists usually play more than one note at a time. All of these frequencies (multiple fundamentals and overtones from the strings hit by the hammers, then fundamentals and overtones from the surrounding strings and parts, etc. etc. etc. are played through the speaker at the same time. This can result in interesting effects from "beat frequencies" on up through higher degrees of artifacting. Some of this may excite some level of peaks and nulls in the resulting sound out of the speaker. Stuff that will not likely be found through even the most exhaustive testing of the speaker that can be done.

I'm just saying that real use of real speakers results in exceedingly complex responses. How you decide to deal with and account for these responses is up to you of course. But speaker response testing, whatever protocol is used, can only tell you at most half the story.

[djDANNY]

I don’t think anyone disagrees that the entire package (speaker and room) is what ultimately determines the sound you hear. But most are of the philosophy that you want to start with as good of a measuring speaker as possible to give you the best chance of getting a good in room response. Maybe you get lucky and your particular room through all the reflections and what not makes a bad measuring speaker sound good? I suppose that’s theoretically possible. But I’m not a betting man so I’ll stick with a speaker that measures well that I can try to make work in my room.

This also backs up my point about not putting too much into personal reviews. There’s no guarantee the speaker will sound the same in your room vs my room. I take into account peoples subjective opinions but if there is direct objective, scientific evidence stating something contradictory, I put more weight into the objective. Like I said, people are biased. Even Amir’s commentary sounds biased. But objective measurements are a good standard by which to judge a speaker as well as reviewer bias. And I’ll stand by that statement.

If you really enjoy your Duo’s, don’t let me (or objective measurements) stop you from that.

[MDinno]

There's nothing I can say here. Hey, Ascend speakers suck then. Go buy the Pioneer. I'm SURE you would be able to tell it apart from the Sierra speaker which obviously sucks. Oh look, the KEF LS50 doesn't pass the Amir test also. What a joke. Find me someone that would agree with that one. The Pioneer is better than that one also I guess. I'm sure you would be able to tell that difference the second you fire them up. Guess what. You can test those speakers in a cave and the Ascend and KEF would sound better than the Pioneers. NHT SB2. I have those speakers and they sound great but according to the great Amir they arena good. What a hack. There is not one respectable person in this field that would agree with any of Amir's assessments. Have a nice day. For the rest, check out Tharbamar on youtube. He tested the Ascend Towers and the Sierra's. Tests them by actually listening to them.