Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

[petmotel]

Seems telling to me that well regarded front ported speakers are not measuring the same from Amir's measurements compared with published measurements from professional speaker manufacturers. As well, how can a speaker (Ascend or any other brand) measure as poorly as Amir is posting, and still sound good to the end user, and be well regarded? Just because someone has acquired an expensive gadget doesn't necessarily mean they are qualified to use it correctly, nor are they necessarily qualified to interpret those results.

That Dave has not been able to come close to reproducing the responses posted at ASR is troubling indeed. To me, it is incredibly unfortunate that an employee of a company can influence to any degree the perceptions of people to competing company's products, there is just too much conflict of interest to suggest neutrality. This whole situation could easily be seen in a very nefarious light if one is to examine the obvious inconsistencies.

Jay

[Shazb0t]

Seems telling to me that well regarded front ported speakers are not measuring the same from Amir's measurements compared with published measurements from professional speaker manufacturers. As well, how can a speaker (Ascend or any other brand) measure as poorly as Amir is posting, and still sound good to the end user, and be well regarded? Just because someone has acquired an expensive gadget doesn't necessarily mean they are qualified to use it correctly, nor are they necessarily qualified to interpret those results.

That Dave has not been able to come close to reproducing the responses posted at ASR is troubling indeed. To me, it is incredibly unfortunate that an employee of a company can influence to any degree the perceptions of people to competing company's products, there is just too much conflict of interest to suggest neutrality. This whole situation could easily be seen in a very nefarious light if one is to examine the obvious inconsistencies.

Jay

The speaker measurements from Amir off the Klippel are accurate. Any attempt to paint them otherwise is needless deflecting. Is port noise rising up and influencing the frequency response of a speaker desired? No, it is not. Dave has said as much himself. There is no need to try to paint this as some sort of conspiracy. And no, gated in-room measurements with an expensive mic are not better than what the Klippel NFS provides. The idea that Amir just "listens" to measurements is also not a fair assessment. The reviews of the Ascend speakers (and all speakers reviews on ASR) have listening tests with and without parametric EQ that is applied by ear per the measured results. Do the Luna's sound as good as they could had the port issues been measured and addressed prior to release? It is likely that they don't. It also makes EQ for the bass more difficult. The main issue Amir had with the Lunas was the tilted up higher frequencies. I don't doubt that the Luna which was tested sounded brighter. The spinorama and EIR confirm as much. These measurements aren't all that subjective.

Amir has had good reviews for Ascend speakers in the Horizon and Sierra 2, so it's not accurate to imply some sort of vendetta. The dude reviews speakers, which always implies some level of subjectivity, to the best of his ability and provides quality measurement data we otherwise wouldn't get from manufacturers. Being upset that he doesn't recommend or "like" a speaker that you purchased doesn't justify trying to gaslight other people on the accuracy of the provided data. Move on if you don't care to see data that doesn't jive with your worldview. There is no agenda.

I'm adding an edit to this post to clarify that it was made prior to Dave posting any investigation details after his initial response. Further postings by Dave have shown my initial trepidation about where the response was going weren't necessary. Shouldn't have had any doubt!

As far as Dave's continuation of the multi parts series response; I hope that it doesn't devolve into a list of excuses for why the Klippel NFS data, spinorama, and EIR are not reliable data points to make observations on the performance of a loudspeaker. Because they are. What would be great to see is acknowledgement that the port resonances can be addressed or just own that the response is what it is and is/was intended. Ascend has been on the forefront of science based measurements in the past and it's not a good look to throw that out now when new data shows differences from what was expected. Have the customer returned Luna measured on another Klippel NFS. Send it to Erin Audio or something if you really believe the data to be false. These are actions that make sense. Doubling down on anecdotes about how everyone who spends money on your product loves them is a transparent ploy. I don't intend this to be negative, but I want to believe that I purchased speakers made by a company run by someone who is able to appropriately respond to legitimate data/criticism without going into classic audio woo tropes. So far the response has been okay, my point is that it can be a fine line. I hope the future response series stays on the right side of it.

[petmotel]

The speaker measurements from Amir off the Klippel are accurate. Any attempt to paint them otherwise is needless deflecting

Can you explain how you know this to be the case? Who are you and why are you always there to get Amir's back? What are your qualifications that I should respect your comments? Have you been present during any of the speaker testing to confirm the procedure?

Being upset that he doesn't recommend or "like" a speaker that you purchased doesn't justify trying to gaslight other people on the accuracy of the provided data

Although I recommended the Luna name in their development thread, I don't own a Luna or Duo so I'm not defending something I own.

Ascend has been on the forefront of science based measurements in the past and it's not a good look to throw that out now when new data shows differences from what was expected

It has always been Ascend's goal to design speakers that sound good and measure well, are you really suggesting they would suddenly change their whole philosophy, and then fudge the test results? Seriously?

Jay

[racrawford65]

Jay,
excellent follow-up comments. I had started a long post with several similar points as in your reply but deleted it. I had the exact same thought as you regarding the accuracy comment.

Further, my take from Dave's first two posts is that Amir's measurements are not aligned with his own, and it appears he's tested several Luna's that are in stock (and is/will test the speakers in question when received). Of the ones he's tested, he's not seen the same issue. Despite his injuries, seems Dave is working hard to determine the cause of the difference in measurements. Furthermore, understanding of what one is seeing in measurements and that of human physiology (eg hearing) adds credibility to Dave's posts, IMO, along with his 30+ years of experience in the industry. Dave/Ascend focus on speakers; Amir reviews just about anything and has a comment on such. He's a reviewer (plus a Harman employee as I understand), so that in itself would give me pause that his subjectivity may be somewhat biased.

As to tilting up, looking at the Luna measurements on the Ascend site, they appear pretty flat on the high end. Based on Dave's comment, they appear to be selling well (exceeding forecast). Unless all the buyers like bright speakers, I'd assume he'd have many returns.

And the last couple of sentences in Shazbot's post (quoted below) were really uncalled for, especially if he actually understood that Dave was working on this scientifically, wasn't a transparent ploy, and is responding appropriately. What makes Amir's data legitimate and not Ascends?.

"Doubling down on anecdotes about how everyone who spends money on your product loves them is a transparent ploy. I don't intend this to be negative, but I want to believe that I purchased speakers made by a company run by someone who is able to appropriately respond to legitimate data/criticism without going into classic audio woo tropes."

I have none of the issues Amir claims with my Duo center. It is not bright nor do I hear any port chuffing. It was a nice step up from the S2 I was previously using for a center in terms of dialog clarity.

[djDANNY]

Can we let Dave finish his posts before we start flinging around accusations (both on the pro and against Ascend sides)?

All I see is Dave taking us through his (exciting in my opinion) journey of investigating a finding from a 3rd party measurement, and he hasn't stated anything to the regards of saying the Klippel NFS measurements are wrong, only that with the way he measured with his equipment (which from the post in part 1 clearly implies is not going to provide the same detailed resolution as that which is possible from the Klippel NFS) he sees the same port resonances but perhaps not to the same level as the Klippel measurements.

And I see nothing wrong with pointing out that customers who bought the Luna/Duo's are happy with them. If Dave's point is that the port resonances exist but largely due to their high Q do not make an audible impact, then the only way to back that up is by actual user feedback. A proxy for that would be customer satisfaction which shows up in the % of units returned. A measurement can only tell you something exists, it can't tell you if it's audible or not. You need people to tell you that.

[Shazb0t]

I stand by what I said. I didn't accuse Dave of fudging anything nor did I intend an "against Ascend" response. As I also stated, I think what Dave's said so far is okay. I'm a little hesitant about him insinuating the Klippel frequency response isn't indicative of issues that are audible, I don't agree with that. I'm admittedly not a fan of the whole, my speakers sell well so they must not have any issues kind of defense; but that being said I'm looking forward to the rest of Dave's response. And as I said, I hope he provides some solid investigative information and is able to improve the Luna or future satellite surrounds based on any new information and/or data collection equipment. I agree with Dave that the Klippel NFS changes things.

As an owner of the RAAL Towers and Horizon Center, I do enjoy the speakers! I also enjoyed reading Amir's review of the Horizon. Ascend can and does make good speakers! Personally, from the Luna measurements on ASR, I crossed them off as a potential surround solution for my system until/if they are modified. I would feel much better about the Sierra-2 or Sierra-2EX, and that's okay! Clearly the Luna was designed with certain constraints and some compromises had to be made. That is understandable! My initial point is that there is no reason to be mad about that. For someone out there, in their specific setup, the Luna could be their best options for ribbon tweeter surrounds. I could definitely see that as a possibility. But that doesn't change the reality of what they are and how the measure. There isn't a conspiracy here.

[petmotel]

I have a very curious nature, I'm as interested as anyone to see the results of Dave's investigation. I made comments that I have concerns about the legitimacy of third party testing by an employee of a competing speaker company. To deny the possibility of brand bias under these circumstances is unrealistic in my experience, thus the reasons for my comments.

Further, to suggest any hint of deceit or impropriety by Ascend is in direct conflict with everything they hold dear. So pardon me for stating the obvious, there is a considerable discrepancy between the two testing methods, it is difficult to understand how both can be right. One comes from a trusted source, one from a person that I have seen in the past post very negatively towards Dave/Ascend, so there is that in the back of my mind. But yes, let us not be hasty and let Dave finish the story of his journey, fascinating to be sure.

Jay

[davef]

Hey guys - I have a LOT more to post, let's keep things calm, friendly and respectful. I didn't expect to miss making a post yesterday, but per the team of Dr's who are treating me, they wanted me to get a Covid vaccine ASAP due to the rampant spread of Delta in my area. With a compromised lung, they thought it best not to wait any longer.

I went Wednesday evening to get the 1st Moderna shot and it literally knocked me on my ass yesterday. They had warned me that it might aggravate my pain - but what I didn't expect was that it would put me back to around week #2 pain. Wow -- every broken rib was on fire! Thankfully they were right when they said it should only last 24 hours because I am feeling so much better today and fully able to work. Damn this Covid!

I'll post part 3 later this evening when I am at home.

[Beave]

I have a very curious nature, I'm as interested as anyone to see the results of Dave's investigation. I made comments that I have concerns about the legitimacy of third party testing by an employee of a competing speaker company. To deny the possibility of brand bias under these circumstances is unrealistic in my experience, thus the reasons for my comments.

Amir doesn't work for a competing speaker company. Where did that come from?

He's a retired Microsoft executive who owns an audio store and/or home theater install company, one that does carry Revel speakers. But he does not work for Harman in any capacity, never has, and has a somewhat strained relationship with them.

[Beave]

DaveF, wishing you a full and fast recovery.