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Thread: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

  1. #111
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by djDANNY View Post
    I guess my question was more what is considered a high Q peak (or dip)? Using a logarithmic scaling of the frequency (as is in most frequency response graphs including the one at ASR), two spikes that visually look identical in shape (Q) would actually cover a vastly different range of frequencies depending on where it is located.

    As an example, a high Q peak at 100hz may cover 95-105hz (a 10hz range). A similar looking high Q peak at 1,000 hz may cover 900-1100 hz (a 200hz range). And a similar looking high Q peak at 10,000hz May cover 9,500-10,500hz (a 1000hz range). So even though the Q looks the same visually on the logarithmic frequency scale graph, would the high Q at 100hz be less offensive than a similar looking high Q at 10,000hz? I know we hear different frequencies differently but those numbers were meant just to be examples.
    The log scale is used precisely to address the problem you're getting at here. Also, why a Q system is used(instead of a frequency range). Remember, a 100-200Hz range is a much bigger pitch range than 10,000-10,100Hz. 100-200Hz is an entire octave, and is equivalent to 10,000-20,000Hz in terms of pitch change.

    Said another way, C1 to C2 is exactly the same as C3-C4(example to show), but the latter covers a wider absolute frequency range.

    Hopefully that makes sense? I'm generally not the best at explaining things

  2. #112
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by MDinno View Post
    We'll just agree to disagree on how to assess a speaker. I'm not going to let one reviewers opinion sway me just based on analytics. One question I have is how is he basing not recommending a speaker on?? Is it for 2 channel music? Home theater? Do you realize how ridiculous it is to not recommend a speaker like the Ascend's or KEFS LS50. I'm still waiting to hear who else agrees with this that have heard the speaker. I'm out because it will be avoided. That Amir has zero credibility. Zero. Audioholics does an excellent job reviewing speakers. Unbiased and completely professional. Adios.
    The only thing I'm willing to agree with you on is that you're not grasping the point that I'm trying to make. Your insistence on misrepresenting what were talking about by dismissing accepted audio science as "analytics" is proof enough of that.

    As for how Amir is recommending speakers, if you bothered to actually look over at ASR you would be able to figure it out for yourself. He recommends based on a combination of the objective measurements and his subjective opinion and then sums them up with a Pink Panther score (yes, really). It's up to you which of those two things are more important. In the end they are recommendations! It's also my understanding that he recommends speakers for how accurately they will play sounds. Think about that when you're pondering on the differences between home theatre and stereo.. Oh check this out, he listens to a single speaker in mono during evaluations! I'm imagining your brain melting. All jokes aside, the Spinorama and Klippel NFS measurement data are the interesting and unique things that you will get from ASR which aren't easily obtained anywhere else. If you believe in controlled science then this information is great as a useful aide in determining which speakers are likely to sound better. Your desire to insinuate that the entire audio science community is a bunch of "analytics" hacks with no credibility who don't understand speakers is disappointing. It's also a little bit telling about you.
    Last edited by Shazb0t; 11-05-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  3. #113
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazb0t View Post
    The only thing I'm willing to agree with you on is that you're not grasping the point that I'm trying to make. Your insistence on misrepresenting what were talking about by dismissing accepted audio science as "analytics" is proof enough of that.

    As for how Amir is recommending speakers, if you bothered to actually look over at ASR you would be able to figure it out for yourself. He recommends based on a combination of the objective measurements and his subjective opinion and then sums them up with a Pink Panther score (yes, really). It's up to you which of those two things are more important. In the end they are recommendations! It's also my understanding that he recommends speakers for how accurately they will play sounds. Think about that when you're pondering on the differences between home theatre and stereo.. Oh check this out, he listens to a single speaker in mono during evaluations! I'm imagining your brain melting. All jokes aside, the Spinorama and Klippel NFS measurement data are the interesting and unique things that you will get from ASR which aren't easily obtained anywhere else. If you believe in controlled science then this information is great as a useful aide in determining which speakers are likely to sound better. Your desire to insinuate that the entire audio science community is a bunch of "analytics" hacks with no credibility who don't understand speakers is disappointing. It's also a little bit telling about you.
    Oh, so Amir represents the entire audio science community heh. I'm sure Gene at Audioholics and Steve Guttenberg is laughing at that one. Still waiting for a legitimate reviewer to agree with Amir that the LS50 is not a recommended speaker. or the NHT SB2. First time I ever heard that low sensitivity speakers are an issue. Like everyone is interested in playing loud. How about fixing your acoustics in your place to make a speaker sound better. Or running Audyssey or doing your own calibrations. It's pretty telling about you that the only person on the earth that doesn't recommend the LS50. Yes it speaks volumes and it's not just a recommendation. It means the person is incompetent and a hack. I stand by my statement.
    Last edited by MDinno; 11-05-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #114
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by pgd View Post
    Well as the owner of the speakers in this review I don't really agree. The reasons you don't hear bad feedback can be explained away.

    I thought the speakers sounded good enough in my living room (some occasional irritating sounds but I am quite sensitive to noise), but always used them with a sub. Quarantine hits and I decide to use them on my desk. 30 minutes in my ears hurt and I keep getting distracted from work by things that sound wrong to me. This kicks off months of purchasing and researching audio equipment with me treating my speakers as the only constants since they're the only thing I have actual data for. I don't know audio that well but I am an engineer, so I set out to solve what's wrong with my audio system.

    Long story short sending them in for review was my last resort after huge amounts of time and money wasted, and an angry wife. Even after sending them in I fully expected them to measure fine and this stuff to be in my head because I fell for a logical fallacy, argument from authority. But apparently the authority had decided his ways were good enough for everyone The only thing that's changed is now the public can point out flaws that would have been chalked up as subjective preference before.

    Funny thing is I don't even care about audio quality that much, I just wanted it to not be irritating.
    PGD,

    Thank you so much for posting. I certainly understand your frustration / anger etc. I also well understand the engineering curiosity as to determine precisely what is going on to cause you any irritation. I have zero hard feelings as to you sending them in to Amir, but I do wish you would have contacted us first. That stated, we do not mess around here and we take both measurements and feedback very seriously and as such, we are already deep into working on this. The Luna and Duo will be better speakers because of you, as will our production line testing procedures.

    With that in mind, and because I do not know who you are, please reach out to me either via private message here on this forum, by email or by phone. If it is OK with you, I would very much like to get your speakers back here for evaluation.

    Thank you in advance.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  5. #115
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by MDinno View Post
    Oh, so Amir represents the entire audio science community heh. I'm sure Gene at Audioholics and Steve Guttenberg is laughing at that one. Still waiting for a legitimate reviewer to agree with Amir that the LS50 is not a recommended speaker. or the NHT SB2. First time I ever heard that low sensitivity speakers are an issue. Like everyone is interested in playing loud. How about fixing your acoustics in your place to make a speaker sound better. Or running Audyssey or doing your own calibrations. It's pretty telling about you that the only person on the earth that doesn't recommend the LS50. Yes it speaks volumes and it's not just a recommendation. It means the person is incompetent and a hack. I stand by my statement.
    The fact that you put Gene and Steve in the same sentence when talking about science is mind boggling. Amir obviously doesn't represent all of audio science, but the methodology he uses and which you've been ignorantly questioning is entirely derived from accepted science. It shows me that you don't have a clue what you're talking about!

    You're so stuck on the KEF LS50! Did you even read the forum post? Here it is for you, there isn't even a recommendation in there! You make no sense man.

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.11144/

    All of the measurements are 100% accurate and good information for prospective buyers. It's infinitely more valuable than you are giving it credit for. I don't even understand what your stance is! Don't provide or look at the measurement data and stick your head in the sand? Are speakers magic to you? There's no way to measure if they're performing well? How do you think a company like KEF designs speakers? Do you think they don't use anechoic measurements? There is no ideal that they're shooting for? It's all shooting from the hip? These are rhetorical questions in case you're confused. It's obvious that KEF uses the very science that you're denying. They actually published a white paper detailing exactly that for their latest Reference series! I guess the KEF engineers are also a bunch of hacks! They should fire their Engineering department and bring on Steve Guttenberg to listen his way into the next Reference series. It would probably save them a bunch of time and R&D money!

    https://us.kef.com/pub/media/documen...hite-paper.pdf

    You're also obsessed with sensitivity but I don't think you know what it means. You're mentioning a bookshelf that had somewhere around 80dB average sensitivity while the manufacturer listed 86dB. That's a pretty big difference dude! Especially considering it had ~1% distortion through the midrange at only 86dB. You're going to need a LOT of power to get those speakers loud and you're going to be rewarded with high distortion in the midrange, a place where our hearing is the most sensitive. Definitely fair to mention that when reviewing the speaker! Of course you completely exaggerate what was said in the review for effect. A familiar pattern with you at this point! Who your audience is is anyone's guess.

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.13273/

    Honestly, I've put more effort into responding to your meritless posts then you deserve. I feel that we've reached a natural closing point where it's clear that neither of us can learn anything else from the other. I wish you the best of luck.
    Last edited by Shazb0t; 11-05-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #116
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    mdinno, shaz ... please agree to disagree so we can move on. Thank you.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  7. #117
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    mdinno, shaz ... please agree to disagree so we can move on. Thank you.
    I'm there.

    Great response to PGD! I really hope that you're able to work on the Luna series and correct any issues. I was heavily considering them for surrounds to go with my Sierra Towers and Horizon center. I'm thinking about making it Sierra-2s now pending the outcome. Either way, looking forward to completing my Ascend 5.2 setup!

  8. #118
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    8

    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    PGD,

    Thank you so much for posting. I certainly understand your frustration / anger etc. I also well understand the engineering curiosity as to determine precisely what is going on to cause you any irritation. I have zero hard feelings as to you sending them in to Amir, but I do wish you would have contacted us first. That stated, we do not mess around here and we take both measurements and feedback very seriously and as such, we are already deep into working on this. The Luna and Duo will be better speakers because of you, as will our production line testing procedures.

    With that in mind, and because I do not know who you are, please reach out to me either via private message here on this forum, by email or by phone. If it is OK with you, I would very much like to get your speakers back here for evaluation.

    Thank you in advance.
    Wow, what a great response. I believe you when you say the speakers will end up being better because of this. I think that's the best way to look at, and it gives me great confidence in Ascend going forward.

  9. #119
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    PGD,

    Thank you so much for posting. I certainly understand your frustration / anger etc. I also well understand the engineering curiosity as to determine precisely what is going on to cause you any irritation. I have zero hard feelings as to you sending them in to Amir, but I do wish you would have contacted us first. That stated, we do not mess around here and we take both measurements and feedback very seriously and as such, we are already deep into working on this. The Luna and Duo will be better speakers because of you, as will our production line testing procedures.

    With that in mind, and because I do not know who you are, please reach out to me either via private message here on this forum, by email or by phone. If it is OK with you, I would very much like to get your speakers back here for evaluation.

    Thank you in advance.
    Thanks Dave. I appreciate the measured response, and I apologize that I got a little snotty. I'll send them to you guys as soon as I receive them back and let you know when they're on their way.

  10. #120
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    Default Re: Which center? Luna, S2, or Horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazb0t View Post
    The fact that you put Gene and Steve in the same sentence when talking about science is mind boggling. Amir obviously doesn't represent all of audio science, but the methodology he uses and which you've been ignorantly questioning is entirely derived from accepted science. It shows me that you don't have a clue what you're talking about!

    You're so stuck on the KEF LS50! Did you even read the forum post? Here it is for you, there isn't even a recommendation in there! You make no sense man.

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.11144/

    All of the measurements are 100% accurate and good information for prospective buyers. It's infinitely more valuable than you are giving it credit for. I don't even understand what your stance is! Don't provide or look at the measurement data and stick your head in the sand? Are speakers magic to you? There's no way to measure if they're performing well? How do you think a company like KEF designs speakers? Do you think they don't use anechoic measurements? There is no ideal that they're shooting for? It's all shooting from the hip? These are rhetorical questions in case you're confused. It's obvious that KEF uses the very science that you're denying. They actually published a white paper detailing exactly that for their latest Reference series! I guess the KEF engineers are also a bunch of hacks! They should fire their Engineering department and bring on Steve Guttenberg to listen his way into the next Reference series. It would probably save them a bunch of time and R&D money!

    https://us.kef.com/pub/media/documen...hite-paper.pdf

    You're also obsessed with sensitivity but I don't think you know what it means. You're mentioning a bookshelf that had somewhere around 80dB average sensitivity while the manufacturer listed 86dB. That's a pretty big difference dude! Especially considering it had ~1% distortion through the midrange at only 86dB. You're going to need a LOT of power to get those speakers loud and you're going to be rewarded with high distortion in the midrange, a place where our hearing is the most sensitive. Definitely fair to mention that when reviewing the speaker! Of course you completely exaggerate what was said in the review for effect. A familiar pattern with you at this point! Who your audience is is anyone's guess.

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.13273/

    Honestly, I've put more effort into responding to your meritless posts then you deserve. I feel that we've reached a natural closing point where it's clear that neither of us can learn anything else from the other. I wish you the best of luck.
    Sorry Dave I need to respond real quick because I'm going to bury him once and for all. Click on the link and tell me what the recommendation says here for the KEF LS50. No recommendation?? Oh, I happen to notice the SVS Ultra is no good the Elac Debut is no good. The whole KEF line basically. BTW, All my speakers have a sub 85 sensitivit and they sound fantastic! Love THE BASS they produce. Obviously you don't know anything about sensitivity and the compromises from going from high to low. Go click on that link.You have now lost ALL credibility along with your Amir.

    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...eakerTestData/
    Last edited by MDinno; 11-06-2020 at 04:00 AM.

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