3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

[kongar]

I have two towers and a horizon center. They match perfectly. So much so, I think they'd be hard to tell apart in a blind listening test. Three towers would be awkward looking imo. My opinion - don't try to get three identical speakers, you'll gain nothing and potentially end up with something weird looking, or your tv in a sub optimal spot.

Whatever way you choose good luck!

[Roen]

I have two towers and a horizon center. They match perfectly. So much so, I think they'd be hard to tell apart in a blind listening test. Three towers would be awkward looking imo. My opinion - don't try to get three identical speakers, you'll gain nothing and potentially end up with something weird looking, or your tv in a sub optimal spot.

I think the Horizon is the exception rather than the norm in the world of matched centers.

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...valuation.html

The numbers still show the superiority of a vertical center channel vs a horizontal center, if you look at the same speaker but different orientation, or even across speakers. To say there is nothing to gain from three identical speakers is quite the gross overstatement, considering that the advice is usually to get three identical fronts for the most cohesive frond sound field / soundstage.

[davef]

I think the Horizon is the exception rather than the norm in the world of matched centers.

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...valuation.html

The numbers still show the superiority of a vertical center channel vs a horizontal center, if you look at the same speaker but different orientation, or even across speakers. To say there is nothing to gain from three identical speakers is quite the gross overstatement, considering that the advice is usually to get three identical fronts for the most cohesive frond sound field / soundstage.

You are looking at generalities rather than specifics. There are far too many variables involved to conclude that Audioholics "numbers" apply to every center speaker. Plus, there is much more to center channel performance than simply horizontal dispersion, which really means nothing provided that you can get a wide enough response with no evidence of lobing.

When I mention wide enough -- in most installations, +/- 30 degrees is plenty, otherwise you are sitting nearly directly in front of one of the left/right speakers which will cause more audible problems than even the worst center channel speaker....

For example, if you are at a distance of 10 feet, +/- 30 degrees means you can sit up to approx 6 feet to the left and 6 feet to the right with no evidence of lobing. That is also assuming a human can actually hear lobing in a typical room environment, which I can assure - there are far more audible room anomalies one hears than lobing.

That stated:

If you look at the polar response of the Horizon, there is zero evidence of lobing even at 90 degs off-axis. How is this possible? It is really quite simple with no "magic" - we use an exceptionally beefy midrange that is crossed to the bass woofers at a low enough wavelength such that the woofers don't produce a wavelength that is 1/4 shorter than the distance between the 2 woofers.

The distance between the Horizon woofers = 15 inches. We cross our mid to the woofers at ~ 180Hz. 180Hz = a wavelength of ~ 75 inches. 1/4 of this = 18.75 inches = quite a bit greater than the distance between the woofers.

In addition, while I prefer to use the 1/4 wavelength calculation, many professionals claim lobing is only audible using the 1/2 wavelength calculation, which than translates to a minimum C-C woofer spacing of 37.5 inches for lobing to occur.

The major difference is that most w-t/m-w centers use tiny 3" or 4" mids which must be crossed to the bass woofers at much higher frequencies, typically 800Hz... Which now means woofer to woofer spacing needs to be at 4.25" or less (using 1/4 wavelength calculation)

The Audioholics article is decent, but it only covers one aspect of center channel performance, and this particular aspect is not a concern with our Horizon center.

[Roen]

You are looking at generalities rather than specifics. There are far too many variables involved to conclude that Audioholics "numbers" apply to every center speaker. Plus, there is much more to center channel performance than simply horizontal dispersion, which really means nothing provided that you can get a wide enough response with no evidence of lobing.

When I mention wide enough -- in most installations, +/- 30 degrees is plenty, otherwise you are sitting nearly directly in front of one of the left/right speakers which will cause more audible problems than even the worst center channel speaker....

For example, if you are at a distance of 10 feet, +/- 30 degrees means you can sit up to approx 6 feet to the left and 6 feet to the right with no evidence of lobing. That is also assuming a human can actually hear lobing in a typical room environment, which I can assure - there are far more audible room anomalies one hears than lobing.

That stated:

If you look at the polar response of the Horizon, there is zero evidence of lobing even at 90 degs off-axis. How is this possible? It is really quite simple with no "magic" - we use an exceptionally beefy midrange that is crossed to the bass woofers at a low enough wavelength such that the woofers don't produce a wavelength that is 1/4 shorter than the distance between the 2 woofers.

The distance between the Horizon woofers = 15 inches. We cross our mid to the woofers at ~ 180Hz. 180Hz = a wavelength of ~ 75 inches. 1/4 of this = 18.75 inches = quite a bit greater than the distance between the woofers.

In addition, while I prefer to use the 1/4 wavelength calculation, many professionals claim lobing is only audible using the 1/2 wavelength calculation, which than translates to a minimum C-C woofer spacing of 37.5 inches for lobing to occur.

The major difference is that most w-t/m-w centers use tiny 3" or 4" mids which must be crossed to the bass woofers at much higher frequencies, typically 800Hz... Which now means woofer to woofer spacing needs to be at 4.25" or less (using 1/4 wavelength calculation)

The Audioholics article is decent, but it only covers one aspect of center channel performance, and this particular aspect is not a concern with our Horizon center.

Have you done any lobing tests on a vertically oriented Horizon? Would it show improvements vs. horizontal?

[davef]

Have you done any lobing tests on a vertically oriented Horizon? Would it show improvements vs. horizontal?

Are you sure you have a firm understanding of what you are discussing? There is really no such thing as a "lobing test". Lobing shows itself on the most basic of off-axis frequency response measurements, of which we publicly post for all of our speakers. I know you don't fully understand this, but asking if I evaluate off-axis response measurements of our speakers is like asking a Physics PHD if he understands the Mass-Energy Equivalence Formula or asking a mechanic if he knows how to change the oil in a car It is, perhaps, the most basic starting point for speaker design (at least for somewhat competent engineers)

May I ask why you are so concerned with this? As I stated, horizontal off-axis lobing is not an issue with the Horizon.

Please see the polar response here: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/image...rizonpolar.gif


Did you read Audioholics conclusion in that same article? As quoted in the article:

"Acoustical interference caused by multiple drivers playing the same bandwidth is a non-issue if the radiating driver's cutoff frequency is low enough so that the distance between adjacent drivers is small relative to the wavelengths they are producing in equal or near equal proportions. (This is known in filter-speak as the "transition band" or "crossover band"). As the order of the crossover is increased (6 dB to 12 dB to 18 dB to 24 dB or beyond), the amount of phase shift within the crossover band increases, so the likelihood of the two speakers being out of phase at any given angle off-axis increases, while the frequency range over which this is an issue decreases. This is why it can be acceptable to horizontally place multiple woofers and midranges (if the center to center distance between them is closer than the highest wavelength of operation) but, typically NOT tweeters."

[Roen]

Are you sure you have a firm understanding of what you are discussing? There is really no such thing as a "lobing test". Lobing shows itself on the most basic of off-axis frequency response measurements, of which we publicly post for all of our speakers. I know you don't fully understand this, but asking if I evaluate off-axis response measurements of our speakers is like asking a Physics PHD if he understands the Mass-Energy Equivalence Formula or asking a mechanic if he knows how to change the oil in a car It is, perhaps, the most basic starting point for speaker design (at least for somewhat competent engineers)

May I ask why you are so concerned with this? As I stated, horizontal off-axis lobing is not an issue with the Horizon.

Please see the polar response here: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/image...rizonpolar.gif


Did you read Audioholics conclusion in that same article? As quoted in the article:

"Acoustical interference caused by multiple drivers playing the same bandwidth is a non-issue if the radiating driver's cutoff frequency is low enough so that the distance between adjacent drivers is small relative to the wavelengths they are producing in equal or near equal proportions. (This is known in filter-speak as the "transition band" or "crossover band"). As the order of the crossover is increased (6 dB to 12 dB to 18 dB to 24 dB or beyond), the amount of phase shift within the crossover band increases, so the likelihood of the two speakers being out of phase at any given angle off-axis increases, while the frequency range over which this is an issue decreases. This is why it can be acceptable to horizontally place multiple woofers and midranges (if the center to center distance between them is closer than the highest wavelength of operation) but, typically NOT tweeters."

I do not, hence why I am asking.

Just trying to see if the same pattern of vertical orientation being better than horizontal orientation as shown in the audioholics article holds for the horizon as well.

[davef]

I do not, hence why I am asking.

Just trying to see if the same pattern of vertical orientation being better than horizontal orientation as shown in the audioholics article holds for the horizon as well.

If you look at the measurements posted on our website here: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...n/hormeas.html

specifically, the horizontal and vertical off-axis graphs, you will see that the horizontal placement is technically "better" than vertical placement.