Beyond the towers (hear me out)

[nball]

Besides my voice/power problems the towers have rocked my world for 3+ years now. They're wonderful. My issues with getting the signal to them from my iMac is another post: you've given me a lot to think about already.

Now, I am thinking to solve many problems at once.

The towers were "re-purposed" to my office (along with an Outlaw LFM-1 and clunky Marantz receiver) to great effect. The sub is gone and AVR has been replaced with a passable(?) Onkyo. They're wonderful, except…

Speakers require context

My office walls (20' wide, 14' deep, large windows facing and to the left) are all built in bookshelves and windows. The towers sound shockingly good even in this space. They're not as nice as they were in the living room but they're damned fine, but they're not super like they were.

Why don't they work here?

I have 2 huge displays on my desk. One blocks the right channel completely. The voices could project down towards me both while seated and standing (via motorized adjustable desk, with 50/50 time spent sit/stand.) This is the next step as the office and displays will not change. The speakers are competing with Beyerdynamic DT990 600 Ohm driven by the iMac.

First step, "fix what's broke"

De-fuck the digital to speaker chain. That's understood but not done now. Room treatments will focus what's not right about the towers right given the current hardware. Thick rug, GIK 242 panels to start.

Second

Sierra 2 + 2x L12's to steer the voices around these giant screens. Like a recording studio without the pressure, basically.

• Mount the Sierras from the ceiling (with diffusion panels on ceiling at first reflection point, in addition to phase 1 treatments)
• L12 at each corner - vs one monster, but this is 80+% music, another post?

Finally

Separates because I am frustrated with trying to do everything in one box.

• NuPrime STA-9
• miniDSP 2x4 HD vs Schiit Bifrost Multibit
• Preamp?

What say ye? I am planning this out over 1 year, roughly, but a bunch will happen sooner. Does this make sense?

[sludgeogre]

If this were me, I'd probably just put the Sierra 2's on Isoacoustics Desk Stands, that way the stereo image and soundstage will always be on point and right at ear level. The other option is to get tall, adjustable speaker stands (like the ones meant for studios and the like) and have the speakers in front of the desk, on the stands, adjusted above the monitors, and pointing down. Or just ceiling mount them, especially if your ceiling isn't that tall. Lots of options for ya.

I think your GIK ideas with panels are fantastic. I can never make up my mind between Acoustimac and GIK, but I'll probably go with Acoustimac because their panels are cheaper since they don't have the built in gap in the panel for flush mounting, they use their "Z-Bar" hangers instead that give it some space from the wall. GIK has those scatter plates, though, which looks really darn cool. Decisions, decisions.

As far as separates, I'm just a Schiit fan boy and I'd personally wait to buy a whole chain from them, since the preamps are coming out soon and the amp sometime next year. The NuPrime amp looks great though, I know a few guys with NuPrime gear and they are huge fans of it as well. The Schiit amp is going to be pretty power hungry and inefficient, so probably will run hot as well, whereas the NuPrime gear won't do that. There are not a lot of affordable preamps out there, most are in the thousands of dollars for no good reason. The Schiit preamps that are coming out are literally the only ones I've seen that come in at a reasonable price for the feature set. If you find one that is reasonable, let me know.

The only preamp currently available that provides real value, to me, is the Emotiva XSP-1, but it's still $1k, and the DAC isn't as great as the Schiit Multibit DACs, but still good, and you can also bypass the DAC with one of the inputs on it. It also has a phono preamp and (best feature of all) extremely good subwoofer management that would negate the need for the miniDSP 2x4, which, while great, is limited in sample rate and bit depth. If you're placing the speakers near-field, I doubt you'd need the room correction anyway, just the low pass filter. Plug the Bifrost and amp into it and you're good to go. Still, you'd be paying more for the preamp than the rest of the signal chain, and that just doesn't make a single bit of sense to me.

It's just incredible that there aren't ANY affordable preamps out there until Schiit releases theirs. There are plenty of great/affordable integrated amps, but preamps are so very rare.

[nball]

The near field option makes the most sense. I've really come full circle: this process began 20 years ago with some used Alesis monitors at my desk and here we are! Using Sierra 2's with iso's for near field strikes me as the best solution. Thanks for correcting my pigheaded direction. I was so stuck on a "classic" set up I did not see the obvious.

What are your thoughts on the Modi MB vs. Bifrost MB? I am going to hold out for the Sage based upon your recommendation.

Thanks again, my wife is going to hate you LMAO

[sludgeogre]

That is awesome, thanks Glad my thoughts made sense!

I have not heard the Modi MB, but from what I've heard it is very close in performance to the Bifrost. You won't be missing a ton, especially with speakers. You'll still get the wide soundstage and immaculate inner detail of the MB sound. The thing I've heard the most while reading about MB tech is that dynamics and high frequency detail/smoothness gets even better as you go up the line, but I think that is more apparent on headphones costing a ton of money than it is on speakers where the room interactions are a huge impact.

[nball]

The motor on the desk doesn't like the weight I'm putting on it already. I added about 30 pounds of books and it said "no." On-desk monitors are a no. Even with a replacement of the leg mechanism they're not going to handle the mass needed for good voices. Weird requirement but I am a convert! Sitting all day sucks.

The tall speaker stands aren't my deal due to the small room thus the ceiling mount concession. For what it's worth: the Salk Sound Power Play Monitors are 52 pounds total. Woof! Not happening. I bet they sound amazing.

Now we're back to the room treatments with ceiling mounted Sierra 2's. The hypothetical chain is this:
Schiit Modi or Bifrost Multibit --> Schiit Sage (or nothing? how to control volume?) --> NuPrime ST-9 --> Sierra's

My ceiling is 9 feet.

BUT! What have I done, not mentioning the sub? How am I getting my sub fix? I am requiring some deeper punch than even the Sierra's can deliver. Assume an L12 at the least, or a pair of L12's, or an F12G, or even a 15FHP.

I should have made clear about the 2.x flavor of my expectations. I am a dolt for forums, sorry folks. See new thread in Rhythmik for this bit... my budget for sub is real.

As my son used to say when learning language: "What do?"

[sludgeogre]

Oh darn I forgot about the desk. Yeah, ceiling mounting makes sense now.

You can pick up the Schiit SYS if you are OK with not having a remote. If you can place it on your desk (it weighs like an ounce I swear) then you'll have the knob right there.

Just make sure that whatever Rythmik you pick up, you get one with the 80 Hz low pass filter outputs so you can take that duty from the Sierra 2's. I say just go with whatever one fits your budget. I love my F12's.

[nball]

Major update! The CWO (chief wife officer) has actually ...wait for it... suggested I move the towers into the fancy living room. My jaw was on the floor. I just ordered those piano black b stock Sierra 2's for my office! I am freaking out about being able to audition each almost whenever I want. Drool.

Now I am debating dual L12's vs. a single E15 for my office. I am hoping I can pass through the subs to each speaker. My planned signal chain doesn't really to 2.1 unless I go with an integrated amp, right? (For historical purposes & FWIW I am completely done with AVR's so skip that option please.) The NuPrime IDA-8 looks promising and it can live right under my monitors. There's a Parasound Halo integrated I am eyeballing but it strikes me as misplaced at even the sale price.

I saw that Sys dial and wondered whether that was an option vs. using software. I know about the noise implications but I really want to understand how they're different and alike. In the end I will have to try both I imagine. Something like this seems very interesting:

Schiit Modi Multibit --> NuPrime STA-9 --> Schiit Sage or Sys --> Rhythmik L12 --> Sierra 2

[sludgeogre]

Nice! Good news! Lots to chew on now.

So your comment about wanting to feed left channel to left sub/right channel to right sub. I've actually been advised against doing that, but I've seen others that do it. To reduce room modes and create the smoothest bass below 80 Hz in the room, you want to feed both the left and right channel to both subs. With both subs playing the same signal, you'll get all of the benefits of smoother room modes and more articulate bass without any loss in imaging, since bass frequencies are omnidirectional, so you shouldn't be able to locate either sub. This is how I do my dual subs and it works perfectly to my ears.

I think you could get away with dual L12's if it works for your space. Since you have a nice big space that sounds to be a good shape without a bunch of open doors, dual subs should work great.

You can't do a low pass filter out of the subs without a separate amp unless you get the MiniDSP 2x4 where you can send the signal from the DAC into that and just do the low pass filtering there. It also cuts down on the number of wires you need to run to and from the subwoofers so it's worth looking into.

Chain would be this:

Schiit Modi Multibit --> Schiit SYS--> MiniDSP 2x4 --> Low pass filter at 80 Hz --> 2x L12
--> High pass filter at 80 Hz --> Any amp --> Sierra 2

With NuPrime again I've heard a lot of great stuff about them, but I just won't touch class D with a 10 foot pole (except in subs) personally after the amps I've heard. I also don't like the whole tube sound simulation thing they are going for. I like clean, distortion free, accurate sound. That's why I went with the Sierras in the first place. You also don't need that much power for them. I'd personally just go with an Emotiva BasX stereo amp or an XPA-2 for a bit more than the NuPrime. I've only ever heard good things about Parasound as well, but yeah they are pricey, too much for me. I've honestly always wanted to buy a couple Outlaw Model 2200 Monoblocks. They look like great little amps, and they are only 2 inches high so it might fit under your monitors, but they are a bit wide as well. Just looks like incredible value from that amp and the pair would really rock that office without sacrificing resolution for class D. I don't know how warm they actually run though, so there's that, but you probably won't be running them very hard.

Honestly the whole Schiit, MiniDSP, Outlaw, dual L12, and Sierra 2 setup sounds extremely cool. You'd have one amp for each speaker and each sub with a DAC that is well known for great soundstage and separation, with ample power all for an insanely low priced compared to other systems that could boast the same attributes. If you go with the E15 you'd even have full audiophile grade class A/B amps on all channels (the L12's are class D, which again is fine for sub amps for the most part).

On the Sys front, it's just a volume pot in a box with a selector and inputs/outputs. That's it. The only better way to attenuate volume is through a stepped attenuator. Doing volume control in the analog domain is the cleanest least damaging way to attenuate (which means to lower volume, and you're always lowering volume from reference, never above, if that makes sense). Doing volume control in the digital domain normally removes a little bit of dynamic range because of the approximations it's doing in the digital domain. There are a bunch of DACs that actually do volume control digitally inside of the DAC, but in a different way than your OS does. I don't know a lot about it so I just stick with analog volume control.

[nball]

You can't do a low pass filter out of the subs without a separate amp unless you get the MiniDSP 2x4 where you can send the signal from the DAC into that and just do the low pass filtering there. It also cuts down on the number of wires you need to run to and from the subwoofers so it's worth looking into.

Chain would be this:

Schiit Modi Multibit --> Schiit SYS--> MiniDSP 2x4 --> Low pass filter at 80 Hz --> 2x L12
--> High pass filter at 80 Hz --> Any amp --> Sierra 2

<snip>

Honestly the whole Schiit, MiniDSP, Outlaw, dual L12, and Sierra 2 setup sounds extremely cool. You'd have one amp for each speaker and each sub with a DAC that is well known for great soundstage and separation, with ample power all for an insanely low priced compared to other systems that could boast the same attributes. If you go with the E15 you'd even have full audiophile grade class A/B amps on all channels (the L12's are class D, which again is fine for sub amps for the most part).

Thank you so much for your advice. The Schiit/MiniDSP combination does look very impressive on paper. Let's see how it plays out! I will report back. I like the idea of separates rather than an integrated amp and I am going for it.

The amp itself has me wrestling. An Emotiva A-300 is only $400 but I can get a Parasound 275 v2 for same or less. Obviously no warranty or return policy so it's a gamble but I have had wonderful luck with used gear of all kinds. (Not stereo equipment though...) My hardcore audio buddies swear by high end, overpowered (in my mind) amps that frankly I am skeptical of. They and others make the point that once you have a solid amp you will keep it for years, even with other elements of the system changing. I can see that. This will only ever be a 2.x system, period.

The differences between amp classes make sense to me electronically/mechanically, but not from an audible perspective. I need to audition more. On that note (hah!) I am also going to look closely at the E15 vs 2x L12's idea. If I went with the 15 then I can always add another later if desired.

Again, many thank you's!

[sludgeogre]

Right on. You're welcome, hope it all works out. You can email Ascend to ask about which way might be ideal for your subwoofer choices, Dave was helpful to me.

The Emotiva A-300 has more power and a much higher damping factor (500 vs 150) which can lead to better low end control and definition in small systems such as yours. The Parasound amp also has two speaker outputs which you don't really need, and a bridging option that you also don't need. Since the Emotiva amp is cheaper and would come with a warranty I'd go that route.