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  1. #1
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    Default Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    I see quite a few people posting all the time that there is no such thing as fast or tight bass. They say that if a subwoofer sounds slow, then it's just because of the room set up. While I certainly believe that room set up, frequency response, and harmonic distortion are important factors in subwoofer performance, I also believe there is more to it than just that. For example, how fast can the movement of the woofer start and stop? What about ported vs sealed? What are your thoughts on this subject?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    I think when people say "fast" they just don't know the proper terms for what they are hearing.

    Excellent impulse response, excellent transient response, and fast decay...all make up a "fast" subwoofer.
    -curtis

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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    I totally agree Curtis. Unfortunately, it seems that most people these days have over simplified subwoofer sound quality. They think maximum output = sound quality. I like output capability too, but it's only part of equation.

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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesiskav View Post
    I see quite a few people posting all the time that there is no such thing as fast or tight bass. They say that if a subwoofer sounds slow, then it's just because of the room set up. While I certainly believe that room set up, frequency response, and harmonic distortion are important factors in subwoofer performance, I also believe there is more to it than just that. For example, how fast can the movement of the woofer start and stop? What about ported vs sealed? What are your thoughts on this subject?
    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    I think when people say "fast" they just don't know the proper terms for what they are hearing.

    Excellent impulse response, excellent transient response, and fast decay...all make up a "fast" subwoofer.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesiskav View Post
    I totally agree Curtis. Unfortunately, it seems that most people these days have over simplified subwoofer sound quality. They think maximum output = sound quality. I like output capability too, but it's only part of equation.
    In my professional opinion, when it comes to subwoofer sound quality - as long as frequency response is reasonable, transient accuracy is the most important factor. This is the characteristic that people unknowingly refer to when they use the term "fast". It's not the speed of the woofer itself, any woofer producing 20Hz moves at the exact same speed - it is how quickly that woofer stops and starts, and there is tremendous variation in this.

    These days, with Audyssey and various other room EQ processing, frequency response and phase is easily corrected for (to some degree) - while transient accuracy of the subwoofer can not be corrected.
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    David Fabrikant
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    In my professional opinion, when it comes to subwoofer sound quality - as long as frequency response is reasonable, transient accuracy is the most important factor. This is the characteristic that people unknowingly refer to when they use the term "fast". It's not the speed of the woofer itself, any woofer producing 20Hz moves at the exact same speed - it is how quickly that woofer stops and starts, and there is tremendous variation in this.

    These days, with Audyssey and various other room EQ processing, frequency response and phase is easily corrected for (to some degree) - while transient accuracy of the subwoofer can not be corrected.
    Totally agreed. This is where the LCD-2 headphone gets things right as well. There are a lot of headphones that can get down to 20 Hz and below, but people see the 5 Hz rating on the LCD-2 and go "OH WOW SUCH BASS!" Then they buy it and they think Audeze lied because they aren't basshead headphones. Well, duh, it just means it can produce deep bass, it doesn't mean it throws it in your face all day, only when it's actually called for by the music, and even then, it's tight and accurate, not like a dance club in your head, which is what people are thinking they are getting.
    -Alex
    PS4/Nvidia Shield --> Emotiva XMC-1 --> Emotiva XPA-5 --> Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers and Horizon Center w/ RAAL tweeters (L/C/R), HTM-200 SE (Surrounds), 2x Rythmik F12 subwoofers

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    Different strokes for different folks I guess...purdy sure some of the folks who crave massive spl into the low teens or single digits are willing to forfeit some accuracy thou not much to reach their inevitable goals....you guys must experience first before you rule it out.... IMO.
    Last edited by billy p; 10-17-2016 at 07:20 PM.
    Speakers 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), MA CP-WT&CT260
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    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG B9 65"
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    I don't know about anybody else but it's not my intention to say that people who want extreme output or extension don't care about quality, or that you can't have extreme output and quality. My point is that it seems quite common these days to see people who judge subwoofer performance solely on output levels and they deny the existence of other performance metrics such as bass detail and articulation. And I've definitely heard some high output systems. In fact I installed a complete JTR system with 2 Captivator subs for a client of mine. It was a very impressive system, at least for movies. Didn't really spend much time listening to music with it.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    @davef How is driver transient response measured? Is it a near field measurement of SPL vs time?

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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by astr0b0y View Post
    @davef How is driver transient response measured? Is it a near field measurement of SPL vs time?
    Microphone placement and SPL are irrelevant. To measure transient response (impulse response) - one must work or use testing gear designed to function in the time domain rather than frequency domain. A unique series of frequency impulses (maximum length sequence) is sent to the unit being tested. The microphone then picks up this sequence and a series of calculations is performed determining the deviations in the original sequence compared to the return sequence. Once the impulse response is calculated, nearly every other loudspeaker measurement can be determined from this data, including frequency response, by applying an FFT to the impulse response data.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_length_sequence

    It is not something the typical hobbyist will be able to measure, which is likely why it is so rarely discussed regarding subwoofer performance. Additionally, it does take the right equipment and user knowledge to perform correctly. Besides Rythmik, I am not even sure if any of the other ID sub manufactures have access to this critical performance data, or even care about it. It is something we take very seriously (#1 priority in the design of many of our loudspeakers) and it is vital to Rythmik as well - transient accuracy is greatly enhanced by Direct Servo.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Subwoofer myth or misunderstanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesiskav View Post
    I don't know about anybody else but it's not my intention to say that people who want extreme output or extension don't care about quality, or that you can't have extreme output and quality. My point is that it seems quite common these days to see people who judge subwoofer performance solely on output levels and they deny the existence of other performance metrics such as bass detail and articulation. And I've definitely heard some high output systems. In fact I installed a complete JTR system with 2 Captivator subs for a client of mine. It was a very impressive system, at least for movies. Didn't really spend much time listening to music with it.
    I agree folks often resort to buzz words in discreptive terms relating to subwoofers. Honestly.. I'm not immune from doing so.... on the rare occasion but I am fully aware and understand how transient response reproduction has a significant roll to play in a subs design and/or SQ.

    My old dual opposed unit sound great for movies but lacked some definition found within certain musical passages used during my demo sequences, much to my chagrin. I must preface this by adding I was also comparing it to my SB13U at the time. Easy fix really by a simple upgraded to the "SE" version drivers....instant improvement...less overhang ... better suited IMO for quickened pace or tempo changes....often required with musical pieces...I suspect and likely where transient response is often lost.

    Curious though to your final comment regarding the Caps.... I would suspect they'd be equally up to the task with music and movies going by their pedigree. Unless.. of course these were the massive units like Cap 4000 ULF or OS LFU designed specifically for HT SPL race purposes.
    Last edited by billy p; 10-18-2016 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Ps...hate using my phone to reply or post.
    Speakers 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), MA CP-WT&CT260
    Sub: Funk Audio 18.0 SantosRW

    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG B9 65"
    Office 2.0: Philharmonic True Mini(coming-soon), Fosi TB10D via Wiim mini.

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