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Thread: Diamond Tweeter?

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Hi David,

    Since you entertained the idea of a diamond tweeter, have you ever entertained the idea of a diamond woofer? I believe the Raidho D-series uses one. It seems like you get the speed/impulse response of a high end metal driver like beryllium, but with all the positives of a non-metal driver like better damping.

    I figure if you are going to go with a diamond tweeter, you would also want an equally fast woofer to keep up with the tweeter. Or heck, even just go the Raidho route by combining a ribbon with a diamond woofer.
    I don't see how a diamond woofer cone is even possible to manufacture and the cost, even if possible, would be astronomical. It also would not be a good choice of material for a woofer cone.

    I think Raidho is just capitalizing on the term "Diamond" by vapor depositing an extremely thin layer of some form of diamond coating onto a carbon fiber woofer cone. Not really sure how this offers any performance advantages. Reminds me of when companies were mass producing Be tweeters by using the same process, the truth eventually came out - with most of them utilizing less than 3% Be.
    Last edited by davef; 12-11-2017 at 05:11 PM.
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    David Fabrikant
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  2. #122
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    I think the diamond woofers are made by Zales. Or maybe by Helzberg. I see TV ads for them all the time just before Christmas and just before Valentine's day. I think they sell them at the parts store known as Jareds. Kay might also carry them.

    Speaking of which, I'm waiting for Dave's diamond tweeter speaker to come out in a gold-plated bamboo cabinet.

    Just don't fall for the 'white van scam' speakers that are knock-offs, with cubic zirconium tweeters and cabinets with cheap gold paint.

    Dave can start advertising it along with all these other TV commercials.

    "For your one true love and best friend..."

    "Every kiss begins with A (for Ascend)"
    Last edited by Beave; 12-11-2017 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beave View Post
    I think the diamond woofers are made by Zales. Or maybe by Helzberg. I see TV ads for them all the time just before Christmas and just before Valentine's day. I think they sell them at the parts store known as Jareds. Kay might also carry them.

    Speaking of which, I'm waiting for Dave's diamond tweeter speaker to come out in a gold-plated bamboo cabinet.

    Just don't fall for the 'white van scam' speakers that are knock-offs, with cubic zirconium tweeters and cabinets with cheap gold paint.

    Dave can start advertising it along with all these other TV commercials.

    "For your one true love and best friend..."

    "Every kiss begins with A (for Ascend)"
    Joking aside.... It is an extremely brittle material for even a tweeter, hence it must have a protective hard grille for protection. I just don't see this as a viable material.

    However, I would be curious as to any realized performance gains from vapor deposited diamond dust.
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    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesiskav View Post
    How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.
    This would be an interesting experiment to say the least. I'd imagine the cost would be much higher than the woven polypropylene cones from SEAS, not to mention the techniques required to fabricate the cone and type of adhesives needed for surround attachment, etc. Also have to consider if the acoustic properties would be compatible with the desired tweeter, i.e. RAAL.

    It would, in theory, be an ideal material: Lightweight with high rigidity. I am currently working on the highest visibility project at my company which involves Carbon fiber parts. The fabrication processes are proprietary and super hush hush.
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  6. #126
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesiskav View Post
    How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    This would be an interesting experiment to say the least. I'd imagine the cost would be much higher than the woven polypropylene cones from SEAS, not to mention the techniques required to fabricate the cone and type of adhesives needed for surround attachment, etc. Also have to consider if the acoustic properties would be compatible with the desired tweeter, i.e. RAAL.

    It would, in theory, be an ideal material: Lightweight with high rigidity. I am currently working on the highest visibility project at my company which involves Carbon fiber parts. The fabrication processes are proprietary and super hush hush.
    Carbon fiber cones have been around for a while. Some of you might remember our original 170's and 340's used Audax's Aerogel material. When designing the original 170 - Audax sent me some HM170CO's to sample against the Aerogel woofers, these were a very popular true carbon fiber woofer. Great woofers, but I preferred the Aerogel as it had suprior damping qualities and it was lower mass. The HM170's had fantastic bass though - I think carbon fiber would be an ideal cone material for bass drivers.

    I still have the HM170's somewhere in my ever growing speaker museum.
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    David Fabrikant
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  7. #127
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Dave, when do you think you can have the demo speaker in Ascend's listening room? I was going to be in SoCal area and would love to listen to them.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I don't see how a diamond woofer cone is even possible to manufacture and the cost, even if possible, would be astronomical. It also would not be a good choice of material for a woofer cone.

    I think Raidho is just capitalizing on the term "Diamond" by vapor depositing an extremely thin layer of some form of diamond coating onto a carbon fiber woofer cone. Not really sure how this offers any performance advantages. Reminds me of when companies were mass producing Be tweeters by using the same process, the truth eventually came out - with most of them utilizing less than 3% Be.
    It's certainly possible that Raidho is vapor depositing diamond onto their existing ceramic cone C1.1 cone, but that ceramic cone is already very good, the decay is extremely fast. But remember, it is a $30,000 pair of 2-way bookshelf speakers. They absolutely could have created a diamond cone. Not all diamond drivers are as expensive as the Seas T29D001. There are Accuton Diamond domes are only $1.5k. I can't imagine why they couldn't have a custom cone made when TAD had custom beryllium drivers made years ago when the cost of beryllium was through the roof compared to now due to being a first mover into the Be midrange market.

    raidho c1.1-2.png

    The low Be ratio I assume you are referring to Usher Audio and their so-called beryllium. The reason the low Be percentage was even investigated in the first place was due the fact that most of the world's beryllium comes from Utah and the major supplier at the time, Brush Wellman instigated the investigation because their product pricing was way off a beryllium driver equipped speaker (Usher BE-718s at the time cost $1300/pr in Asia, and replacement Be drivers were under $100). After testing it was determined they used titanium tweeters with minuscule amounts of Be. Usher then changed their drivers to "diamond" to avoid bad publicity, but their "diamond" drivers only cost $199/pair for replacement drivers, again making it unlikely it's an actual diamond driver but probably just some type of ceramic.

    Today most companies use Brush Wellman/Materon for their beryllium (Scanspeak, Focal, Paradigm, Revel, etc) so no one suspects the major brands of any shenanigans since they all use the same supplier.
    Last edited by Asliang; 12-21-2017 at 11:17 PM.

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post
    Dave, when do you think you can have the demo speaker in Ascend's listening room? I was going to be in SoCal area and would love to listen to them.
    I recently received some really tricked out woofers from SEAS designed to be used with the white diamond tweeter. However, it is going to be quite some time before I design and optimize a crossover for this speaker. It is not high priority at this time - but it is something I definitely will get done sometime in 2018 as I want this pair for me
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    David Fabrikant
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  10. #130
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    It's certainly possible that Raidho is vapor depositing diamond onto their existing ceramic cone C1.1 cone, but that ceramic cone is already very good, the decay is extremely fast. But remember, it is a $30,000 pair of 2-way bookshelf speakers. They absolutely could have created a diamond cone. Not all diamond drivers are as expensive as the Seas T29D001. There are Accuton Diamond domes are only $1.5k. I can't imagine why they couldn't have a custom cone made when TAD had custom beryllium drivers made years ago when the cost of beryllium was through the roof compared to now due to being a first mover into the Be midrange market.
    Due to cleavage planes, diamond in these shapes will be extremely brittle. This is one of my concerns with even considering it for a tweeter. One touch from a poking finger or object and it will shatter. It is not an appropriate material for a woofer.


    The low Be ratio I assume you are referring to Usher Audio and their so-called beryllium.
    Actually no - I was investigating Be tweeters well before Usher released that speaker. At that time I was sent many samples from many different companies advertising Be domes and none of them offered any advantages over a decent metal dome. My suspicions reached a peak when TB offered me a pair of their "Beryllium" tweeters when I met with them at CES sometime in the early 2000's. The color of the dome itself was wrong -- looked more like copper.

    I had already done quite a bit of research on Be domes and had many correspondences with Brush about their Be foil - but I was really interested in vapor deposition as opposed to foil.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

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