Diamond Tweeter?

[Asliang]

There is a LOT more to woofer performance than simply power handling and bass extension. A few of the main factors I look for are (not necessarily in this order) - smooth on and off-axis frequency response, excellent transient response, and very low cone resonance at higher frequencies.

Bass extension is controlled more by the design of the speaker itself than by the woofer. The reason you are impressed with the bass extension of the Salk Silk is because of the low efficiency of this speaker (83dB). If we dropped the efficiency of the S2 down to equal that of the Salk Silk, we would effectively have the same - actually slightly deeper bass extension.

The Scan 15W does not have deeper bass extension than the woofer we use in the S2. Please familiarize yourself with Hoffman’s Iron Law of Speaker Building.



When I was referring to the complexity of the crossover, I was not referring to the order of the filter slopes. I was referring to additional crossover networks to compensate for issues with the woofer or a tweeter. For example, a parallel notch filter - which is needed to compensate for the cone breakup on the Scan 15W uses 3 components (a cap, inductor and a resistor). While it is a competent bandaid for the issue with this woofer - it creates other issues. Notch filters, impedance compensation networks, complex L-pads, Zobel networks - I prefer to avoid using these whenever possible by focusing on getting the woofer and tweeter right for our specific application. This is precisely the reason we customize nearly all and even fully design some our own transducers. We could simply use the Scan 15w and call it a day (that is actually really simple) - but it is not how we do things here. I like the motor on the Illuminator but prefer the cone of the Revelator -- I suspect the Scan Ellipticor woofers might be a good compromise.

1st order filters create more wave form interference as more of the woofer and tweeter response bleeds into each other, worsening comb filtering. This gets worse the further off-axis you are and for a woofer, with low order filters - you run into issues with beaming and for a tweeter, run into issues with power handling. The only advantage 1st order filters offer is there is no phase shift.

With the tricked out Curv woofer that I intend to use in this Diamond Sierra, the goals were:

even faster transient response
less cone breakup
Better cooling (higher output before dynamic compression)
significant reduction in inductance


Bass response will be determined by how much overall efficiency of the speaker I am willing to sacrifice, but I am not a fan of using too much padding on a tweeter...

Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?

Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.

http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm

[bkdc]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.

[curtis]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.

Ditto!

[theophile]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.

Ditto!

Ditto #2!!

[davef]

Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?

Just because the response measurements show that a tweeter can produce linear output at such low frequencies (for a tweeter at least), doesn't mean it is a smart design choice... We will likely high pass this tweeter between 1800 - 2200 kHz.

Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.

Until I see various raw measurements of this woofer or can evaluate one for myself, I fully standby what I previously stated. Just because something can be produced, doesn't always mean it should be... I can't imagine any professional in this industry willing to use a woofer that likely costs $20K+ (other than the designer of this 1/2 million dollar pair of speakers)

[PoppaOptic]

After listening to a set of B&W 804 speakers with the "diamond" tweeter I don't give much credence to techno-babble for marketing. It's all in how the whole speaker comes together. My S2 bookshelf speakers sound way better, to me, than the B&W 804.

Good job Ascend!

[N Boros]

After listening to a set of B&W 804 speakers with the "diamond" tweeter I don't give much credence to techno-babble for marketing. It's all in how the whole speaker comes together. My S2 bookshelf speakers sound way better, to me, than the B&W 804.

Good job Ascend!

I own the Sierra 2s as well. I haven't heard the B&W's you are mentioning. And I don't want to get start a debate about who is a better speaker designer and who might be using better materials. I'm thinking that Ascend speakers and B&W both use quality components and are designed well.

So really the difference is what the designers were going for especially in this case of the B&W 804s and the Ascend Sierra 2s. The B&Ws are not going for an accurate sound, whereas the Ascends are going for an accurate sound. So really, in the case of what you heard, I think that what you heard is two speakers that had two very different design goals.

[PoppaOptic]

I own the Sierra 2s as well. I haven't heard the B&W's you are mentioning. And I don't want to get start a debate about who is a better speaker designer and who might be using better materials. I'm thinking that Ascend speakers and B&W both use quality components and are designed well.

So really the difference is what the designers were going for especially in this case of the B&W 804s and the Ascend Sierra 2s. The B&Ws are not going for an accurate sound, whereas the Ascends are going for an accurate sound. So really, in the case of what you heard, I think that what you heard is two speakers that had two very different design goals.

Not sure where you're going with all of this since I clearly stated "to me" referring to sound quality. The B&W sounded extremely harsh to my ears. I like bright speakers, but these were harsh to my ears and didn't have the desired sound quality for what I like to listen to in music.

I also listened to some Paradigm Persona speakers with a Beryllium Mid and Beryllium Hi per "marketing". I thought these sounded really good.

I then listened to some Bryston Middle T speakers and thought they were the best speakers I've heard. They don't have any marketing hype and honestly look like something from a K-Mart bluelight special. For how I enjoy listening to music they were great.

My whole point is simply marketing is just that...marketing. It doesn't matter what is used if the entire system doesn't perform well together and even then that doesn't matter since it's totally subjective to an individual's listening preferences.

[N Boros]

Not sure where you're going with all of this since I clearly stated "to me" referring to sound quality. The B&W sounded extremely harsh to my ears. I like bright speakers, but these were harsh to my ears and didn't have the desired sound quality for what I like to listen to in music.

I also listened to some Paradigm Persona speakers with a Beryllium Mid and Beryllium Hi per "marketing". I thought these sounded really good.

I then listened to some Bryston Middle T speakers and thought they were the best speakers I've heard. They don't have any marketing hype and honestly look like something from a K-Mart bluelight special. For how I enjoy listening to music they were great.

My whole point is simply marketing is just that...marketing. It doesn't matter what is used if the entire system doesn't perform well together and even then that doesn't matter since it's totally subjective to an individual's listening preferences.

I agree with you that marketing of speakers or just about anything else should typically be ignored. At best they are stretching the truth with much of what they say.

The only point that I was trying to make is simply that the Sierra 2s and B&W 804s should sound drastically different, because they had drastically different design goals. So removing what drivers and materials were used to construct either or even if they were designed well or not from the equation, I think it is mostly just the different design goals.

B&W aims for the smile curve with elevated highs and bass, with the midrange recessed. I would think that most people set their volume level based on the midrange, probably the critical midrange where our hearing is most sensitive. Coming from an accurate speaker that you are used to, you then set the volume level for a recording on the B&Ws and find the bass and highs seem way too hot, even to the point where the highs came off as harsh. I would probably have experienced the same thing listening to them. But, if some people have lost a lot of high end in their hearing and prefer the bass to be a bit elevated, then maybe the B&Ws sound great. This must be why they are such a popular speaker. But, I'm betting that the "harshness" at least from B&Ws speakers are not because they cut corners on the quality of the drivers or something else. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[diesel79]

Any updates or pics of the speakers with the diamond tweeters?