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Thread: Diamond Tweeter?

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Interesting! So being that THD is not the important factor here, I guess the major question is will the new Curv woofer have greater bass extension than the one in the S2, or will the difference mainly be power handling? What popped out immediately to me was that the Scan Illuminator played quite a bit deeper.

    Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?
    Dynaudio, from what I remember, doesn't use 1st order *electrical* crossovers. They use fairly complex, high-level *electrical* crossovers to get what approximates 1st order electro-acoustic crossover slopes (ie, the slope when the crossover and driver response are combined).

    If you look at any of the crossover boards of Dynaudio speakers, there are simply WAY too many components for them to be 1st order electrical crossovers.

    B&W, on the other hand, do use 1st order electrical crossovers on many of their speakers - a single cap for highpassing their tweeters, and a single inductor for lowpassing their midwoofers.

  2. #152
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Excellent explanation Dave, as usual.

    One thing I would add is that even these in-room frequency response measurements aren't an ideal way of capturing what is actually heard. Anechoic measurements, or pseudo-anechoic, are of course better. Short of that, it would be better to do some spatial averaging, something like a +/- 15 degree window, for in-room responses.

    For example, all the graphs show a significant ripple around 6-10kHz. But none of these speakers have this ripple in their anechoic responses. This is probably a room issue at the exact measuring location (or perhaps a mic issue?), and one that would probably be reduced quite a lot by spatial averaging.

    See Floyd Toole's book(s) for further info.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    I just looked at the raw response of the Scan Illuminator 15W. Wow, it does indeed have a large resonance. The Scan Revelator 15W doesn't have nearly as large a peak.

    One other comment: The Salk Silk with the Scan Illuminator might have more bass extension than the S2 in part because of its lower sensitivity. It's always a tradeoff between bass extension and sensitivity with a similar sized driver in a similar sized cabinet.

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Interesting! So being that THD is not the important factor here, I guess the major question is will the new Curv woofer have greater bass extension than the one in the S2, or will the difference mainly be power handling? What popped out immediately to me was that the Scan Illuminator played quite a bit deeper.

    Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?
    There is a LOT more to woofer performance than simply power handling and bass extension. A few of the main factors I look for are (not necessarily in this order) - smooth on and off-axis frequency response, excellent transient response, and very low cone resonance at higher frequencies.

    Bass extension is controlled more by the design of the speaker itself than by the woofer. The reason you are impressed with the bass extension of the Salk Silk is because of the low efficiency of this speaker (83dB). If we dropped the efficiency of the S2 down to equal that of the Salk Silk, we would effectively have the same - actually slightly deeper bass extension.

    The Scan 15W does not have deeper bass extension than the woofer we use in the S2. Please familiarize yourself with Hoffman’s Iron Law of Speaker Building.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?
    When I was referring to the complexity of the crossover, I was not referring to the order of the filter slopes. I was referring to additional crossover networks to compensate for issues with the woofer or a tweeter. For example, a parallel notch filter - which is needed to compensate for the cone breakup on the Scan 15W uses 3 components (a cap, inductor and a resistor). While it is a competent bandaid for the issue with this woofer - it creates other issues. Notch filters, impedance compensation networks, complex L-pads, Zobel networks - I prefer to avoid using these whenever possible by focusing on getting the woofer and tweeter right for our specific application. This is precisely the reason we customize nearly all and even fully design some our own transducers. We could simply use the Scan 15w and call it a day (that is actually really simple) - but it is not how we do things here. I like the motor on the Illuminator but prefer the cone of the Revelator -- I suspect the Scan Ellipticor woofers might be a good compromise.

    1st order filters create more wave form interference as more of the woofer and tweeter response bleeds into each other, worsening comb filtering. This gets worse the further off-axis you are and for a woofer, with low order filters - you run into issues with beaming and for a tweeter, run into issues with power handling. The only advantage 1st order filters offer is there is no phase shift.

    With the tricked out Curv woofer that I intend to use in this Diamond Sierra, the goals were:

    even faster transient response
    less cone breakup
    Better cooling (higher output before dynamic compression)
    significant reduction in inductance


    Bass response will be determined by how much overall efficiency of the speaker I am willing to sacrifice, but I am not a fan of using too much padding on a tweeter...
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  5. #155
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    There is a LOT more to woofer performance than simply power handling and bass extension. A few of the main factors I look for are (not necessarily in this order) - smooth on and off-axis frequency response, excellent transient response, and very low cone resonance at higher frequencies.

    Bass extension is controlled more by the design of the speaker itself than by the woofer. The reason you are impressed with the bass extension of the Salk Silk is because of the low efficiency of this speaker (83dB). If we dropped the efficiency of the S2 down to equal that of the Salk Silk, we would effectively have the same - actually slightly deeper bass extension.

    The Scan 15W does not have deeper bass extension than the woofer we use in the S2. Please familiarize yourself with Hoffman’s Iron Law of Speaker Building.



    When I was referring to the complexity of the crossover, I was not referring to the order of the filter slopes. I was referring to additional crossover networks to compensate for issues with the woofer or a tweeter. For example, a parallel notch filter - which is needed to compensate for the cone breakup on the Scan 15W uses 3 components (a cap, inductor and a resistor). While it is a competent bandaid for the issue with this woofer - it creates other issues. Notch filters, impedance compensation networks, complex L-pads, Zobel networks - I prefer to avoid using these whenever possible by focusing on getting the woofer and tweeter right for our specific application. This is precisely the reason we customize nearly all and even fully design some our own transducers. We could simply use the Scan 15w and call it a day (that is actually really simple) - but it is not how we do things here. I like the motor on the Illuminator but prefer the cone of the Revelator -- I suspect the Scan Ellipticor woofers might be a good compromise.

    1st order filters create more wave form interference as more of the woofer and tweeter response bleeds into each other, worsening comb filtering. This gets worse the further off-axis you are and for a woofer, with low order filters - you run into issues with beaming and for a tweeter, run into issues with power handling. The only advantage 1st order filters offer is there is no phase shift.

    With the tricked out Curv woofer that I intend to use in this Diamond Sierra, the goals were:

    even faster transient response
    less cone breakup
    Better cooling (higher output before dynamic compression)
    significant reduction in inductance


    Bass response will be determined by how much overall efficiency of the speaker I am willing to sacrifice, but I am not a fan of using too much padding on a tweeter...
    Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?

    Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

    Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.

    http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm
    Last edited by Asliang; 01-09-2018 at 08:37 PM.

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.

  7. #157
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by bkdc View Post
    One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.
    Ditto!
    -curtis

  8. #158
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by bkdc View Post
    One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.
    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    Ditto!
    Ditto #2!!
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  9. #159
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?
    Just because the response measurements show that a tweeter can produce linear output at such low frequencies (for a tweeter at least), doesn't mean it is a smart design choice... We will likely high pass this tweeter between 1800 - 2200 kHz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

    Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.
    Until I see various raw measurements of this woofer or can evaluate one for myself, I fully standby what I previously stated. Just because something can be produced, doesn't always mean it should be... I can't imagine any professional in this industry willing to use a woofer that likely costs $20K+ (other than the designer of this 1/2 million dollar pair of speakers)
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  10. #160
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    Default Re: Diamond Tweeter?

    After listening to a set of B&W 804 speakers with the "diamond" tweeter I don't give much credence to techno-babble for marketing. It's all in how the whole speaker comes together. My S2 bookshelf speakers sound way better, to me, than the B&W 804.

    Good job Ascend!

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