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Thread: S-1 NrT's or S-2 ?!

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Thanks for sharing that experience.

  2. #12
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    Dec 2005
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    146

    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Hi Jim,

    You're S2\Luna suggestion is great, thanks for your input. But, already been there...done that!

    Two years ago, received the S2's (B-stock-Piano Black-Gorgeous) from Dave and had many listening sessions in direct comparison to the S1-Nrt's! Before the end of the 30 day trial period, sent them back to Ascend. In a larger room environment, I have No Doubt and know the S2's would be a step up from the S1 NrT's! They are Extremely accurate and natural on the top end (RAAL) and the midrange\bottom end is equally natural and accurate (curvy mid-woofer)...just a Superb Engineered High End Monitor!!

    However, in my small near-field listening room, I just could not get past their Vertical Dispersion limitations. Although the room is small (90sf), the ceiling is high (11ft) and felt they never energized that extra open space. I had about a 1" -full range- comfort zone in the very wide horizontal sweet spot area to adjust my ears up and down (on 31" stands w\S2's tilled forward 5-7 degrees). Once locked in, the presentation was Glorious! As soon as I started to stand, top 2 octaves of the music rolled off 10 to 20 db, leaving a veiled and compressed nasal midrange.

    The NrT's have near as much equal horizontal dispersion as the RAAL's, but being a dome, present that wide dispersion characteristic equally in vertical dispersion! For me, my genre of music, my equipment and in my listening room, felt the S1 NrT's present a more realistic and live musical experience!!

    IMHO, to Really top the current sound I have in my listening room, I'll experiment with #1-room\wall treatments...#2-Investing in the S2Di's!!!

    Ted
    I wonder if Ascend would consider selling the foam pads with the RAAL 70-10. From what I've seen on DIY Audio people have measured the 70-10 with the foam pads and it seems to improve the vertical dispersion significantly.

    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...morphous-core/

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asliang View Post
    I wonder if Ascend would consider selling the foam pads with the RAAL 70-10. From what I've seen on DIY Audio people have measured the 70-10 with the foam pads and it seems to improve the vertical dispersion significantly.

    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...morphous-core/
    That's an entirely different tweeter, with a longer ribbon diaphragm. Even with those pads mounted on the 70-10, the ribbon in the S2 - with a shorter ribbon, has wider vertical dispersion. Those pads are not appropriate for the S2 tweeter. In the 70-10, those pads work by absorbing sound, effectively shortening the ribbon diaphragm.

    Based on Ted's comments, unless he was listening at about 3 feet away, which is possible, the difference in height between him sitting and standing would in no way account for 10-20dB loss in the upper octaves. It just doesn't work that way and I suspect those numbers are just a guess on his part, considering he stated 10-20 dB, whereas that would be equivalent in saying well I might have been going 10 mph or maybe 100 mph.

    More than likely it was a few dB's -- due mostly in part to the differences in the overall frequency response between the S2 and S1NrT, with only a fractional part of what he heard due to the slightly more vertically directional response of the S2 tweeter.

    By design, the Sierra-1 NrT has a rising high frequency response, while the S2 does not (it is extremely neutral). The S1 NrT will produce significantly more high frequency energy. Considering his high ceilings which reduce ceiling reflections (thus reducing room ambience), this results in more overall high frequency losses in a room, making it simple to understand why - for Ted's ears, he preferred the S1 NrT.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  4. #14
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    Aug 2007
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    S.E. La. - USA
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    Thumbs up Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Dave,

    Thanks for clarifying the AA custom tweeter difference in the S2 with the 70-10 base RAAL's!

    When standing, there was a definite drop in vertical dispersion energy response in the S2's from my 87" sitting position, but my prior 10-20db loss statement was exaggerated...probably more like 4-5db. With the S1 NrT +4 db rise from 7Kh to 14Kh, believe your summation on why I prefer the NrT's in my high ceiling listening room makes perfect sense.

    My last audio-metric hearing test (2015) proved I still hear 10Kh at a 0db reference levels...feel very sensitive to any loss or gains in that extreme near ultrasonic region. For me and my environment, the S1 NrT's soundstage and realism still recreate an Amazing and Live 2-channel experience!!

    Ted
    Last edited by theophile; 03-14-2019 at 12:20 PM.
    Sierra-1 NrT's, Axiom EP 500, Emotiva USP-1, Emotiva UPA-2, Phillips CD880 (dedicated 2.1 listening room)!

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Dave,

    Thanks for clarifying the AA custom tweeter difference in the S2 with the 70-10 base RAAL's!

    When standing, there was a definite drop in vertical dispersion energy response in the S2's from my 87" sitting position, but my prior 10-20db loss statement was exaggerated...probably more like 4-5db. With the S1 NrT +4 db rise from 7Kh to 14Kh, believe your summation on why I prefer the NrT's in my high ceiling listening room makes perfect sense.

    My last audio-metric hearing test (2015) proved I still hear 10Kh at a 0db reference levels...feel very sensitive to any loss or gains in that extreme near ultrasonic region. For me and my environment, the S1 NrT's soundstage and realism still recreate an Amazing and Live 2-channel experience!!

    Ted
    Hi Ted,

    The 1-2 foot difference in height at 7 feet distance would only account for a slight upper frequency loss above 10kHz due to the vertical directivity of the ribbon. I suspect what you are hearing is actually due to the higher crossover point in the S2 vs the NrT, which would account for a mild high frequency dropoff from the woofer near the crossover point. This is common with any speaker but with the NrT, we are able to use a very shallow tweeter rolloff and a low crossover point.

    I absolutely do not doubt what you heard, but I don't believe it is at the frequencies you thought it was at, nor what caused it...
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  6. #16
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    Feb 2013
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    132

    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Guess you just need that S2-xrS: S2 with RAAL 70-20xr and Special SEAS mid-woofer!

  7. #17
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    Question Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Hi Ted,

    The 1-2 foot difference in height at 7 feet distance would only account for a slight upper frequency loss above 10kHz due to the vertical directivity of the ribbon. I suspect what you are hearing is actually due to the higher crossover point in the S2 vs the NrT, which would account for a mild high frequency dropoff from the woofer near the crossover point. This is common with any speaker but with the NrT, we are able to use a very shallow tweeter rolloff and a low crossover point.

    I absolutely do not doubt what you heard, but I don't believe it is at the frequencies you thought it was at, nor what caused it...
    Dave,

    What is the crossover point\slope with the S1 NrT's (had them since 2011, never knew)?

    If\When AA and Seas conclude that the new S2Di woofer could be a viable stocked upgrade component for past Sierra owners, would the possibility of dropping-in, or integrating it with the S1 NrT's work out and improve bass and midrange from what I already have???

    As always, appreciate your time and assistance!

    Ted
    Sierra-1 NrT's, Axiom EP 500, Emotiva USP-1, Emotiva UPA-2, Phillips CD880 (dedicated 2.1 listening room)!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Dave,

    What is the crossover point\slope with the S1 NrT's (had them since 2011, never knew)?

    If\When AA and Seas conclude that the new S2Di woofer could be a viable stocked upgrade component for past Sierra owners, would the possibility of dropping-in, or integrating it with the S1 NrT's work out and improve bass and midrange from what I already have???

    As always, appreciate your time and assistance!

    Ted
    Crossover point on your S-1 NrT is ~1.8 kHz. The custom S2Di woofer is technically quite superior to the woofer in your Sierra-1 NrT's. Bass would be tighter, more accurate with improved transient reproduction but overall extension would be about the same, maybe just a tad bit lower. The major improvements would in the mids, but again - this is from a purely objective stance, technical improvements don't always lead to subjective improvements, especially in audio.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  9. #19
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    S.E. La. - USA
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    Cool Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Crossover point on your S-1 NrT is ~1.8 kHz. The custom S2Di woofer is technically quite superior to the woofer in your Sierra-1 NrT's. Bass would be tighter, more accurate with improved transient reproduction but overall extension would be about the same, maybe just a tad bit lower. The major improvements would in the mids, but again - this is from a purely objective stance, technical improvements don't always lead to subjective improvements, especially in audio.
    Thanks Dave,

    Sorry for the late response...just returned from Vermont and Montreal...burrrrr, but gorgeous scenery!

    Soooo, would the S2Di custom woofers be a "drop-in" S1 NrT fit (same xover, same cabinet, same porting), or would I need to send them in for an upgrade face-lift\resert?!?

    Ted
    Sierra-1 NrT's, Axiom EP 500, Emotiva USP-1, Emotiva UPA-2, Phillips CD880 (dedicated 2.1 listening room)!

  10. #20
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    Mar 2004
    Location
    SouthWest of Cleveland
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    1,638

    Default Re: Sierra-1 NrT's !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Thanks Dave,

    Sorry for the late response...just returned from Vermont and Montreal...burrrrr, but gorgeous scenery!

    Soooo, would the S2Di custom woofers be a "drop-in" S1 NrT fit (same xover, same cabinet, same porting), or would I need to send them in for an upgrade face-lift\resert?!?

    Ted
    I'd expect a new crossover as well. Cabinet/porting should remain the same.

    Bear in mind, that new woofer is strictly custom hand built at this point for the Diamond tweeter Sierra on a per-order basis as far as I know. Dave is trying to work with SEAS towards a larger volume production version that would significantly reduce cost, but he still thinks it would cost $300 just for the woofer.

    All of the Sierra upgrades have been drop-in and easily done by the end user.
    Ed

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