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Thread: Alternative to Ryhmik

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    238

    Default Re: Alternative to Ryhmik

    Hi Brian, got any pictures of the F18HP? And how much more output will it have compared to the F15HP?
    Last edited by mikesiskav; 12-10-2016 at 02:17 PM.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    101

    Default Re: Alternative to Ryhmik

    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    Thank you for the detailed explanation. This helps a lot. Okay, so the high damping setting on your subs are going to be the most accurate in terms of phase. The sealed subs can be more accurate than the ported subs in this regard. What does the more accurate phase setting give you in terms of sound quality? Are you able to get more detail out of the same piece of music? Does it allow a more accurate location of where the bass is supposed to be located in the room (I have no idea, I'm just thinking about how phase is important in your main speakers in being able to locate sounds in three dimensional space, sometimes even behind you. But, with a subwoofer the signal is in mono so I don't think that this makes sense)?
    Phase and ring are related. You cannot get a system with high phase shift and yet give you no ringing in time domain. I understand most people treat some of the characteristics as if they have total degree of freedom. For instance, one thing I mentioned about ported sub is it has 4th order roll off. Most will think it is no big deal, I can live with that. But what i have not told you is 4th order has 2 Q values because a 4th order system can be thought of cascade of two 2nd order system with each 2nd order has a corner frequency F and a Q value. In other words, we have F1,F2,Q1,and Q2. Most will think he has complete freedom of picking F1, F2, Q1, and Q2. Unfortunately, it is not the case. So in reality, when some DIY picks a driver A and puts in a ported box B, most often he will get one high Q value and one low Q value. He cannot get low Q values for both both Q1 and Q2. The most commonly Q value combination is something like Q1=1.1 and Q2=0.6, or Q1=1.2 and Q2=0.5. Now you see the trend? If you try to reduce one Q, then the other Q pops up or if you want to make F1=15hz and keep Q1 and Q2 to the values you want, then F2 becomes 25hz. It is a constant game of seesaw.
    [EDIT]

    Another way to look at this problem is we compare sealed subs with ported subs. What is added to the system when we go from a sealed sub to a ported sub? The only thing we add is the port tuning frequnecy. That is, we add only one extra degree of freedom and yet we have two new variables F2, Q2 introduced in the system. That is why it is so difficult to controll all F1/Q1/F2/Q2 values exactly what we want them.


    Now if someone in college say I have access to symbolic math equation solver that I can solve this problem exactly. What he wil find is in order to get both Q values to be at 0.6 or lower, the enclosure may need to be so big or the driver needs to be so compliant that it becomes impractical. When we have one high Q and one low Q in your system, the ringing at the time domain is mainly determined by the high Q characteristics. That is why it is not a fair comparison for sealed and ported subs. Josh and other has tried to EQ a ported sub to a sealed sub in order to do subjective evaluation. Once you understand the big picture, you don't even bother to do that.
    Last edited by RythmikAudio; 12-12-2016 at 11:45 AM.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    22

    Default Re: Alternative to Ryhmik

    Quote Originally Posted by RythmikAudio View Post
    Phase and ring are related. You cannot get a system with high phase shift and yet give you no ringing in time domain. I understand most people treat some of the characteristics as if they have total degree of freedom. For instance, one thing I mentioned about ported sub is it has 4th order roll off. Most will think it is no big deal, I can live with that. But what i have not told you is 4th order has 2 Q values because a 4th order system can be thought of cascade of two 2nd order system with each 2nd order has a corner frequency F and a Q value. In other words, we have F1,F2,Q1,and Q2. Most will think he has complete freedom of picking F1, F2, Q1, and Q2. Unfortunately, it is not the case. So in reality, when some DIY picks a driver A and puts in a ported box B, most often he will get one high Q value and one low Q value. He cannot get low Q values for both both Q1 and Q2. The most commonly Q value combination is something like Q1=1.1 and Q2=0.6, or Q1=1.2 and Q2=0.5. Now you see the trend? If you try to reduce one Q, then the other Q pops up or if you want to make F1=15hz and keep Q1 and Q2 to the values you want, then F2 becomes 25hz. It is a constant game of seesaw.
    [EDIT]

    Another way to look at this problem is we compare sealed subs with ported subs. What is added to the system when we go from a sealed sub to a ported sub? The only thing we add is the port tuning frequnecy. That is, we add only one extra degree of freedom and yet we have two new variables F2, Q2 introduced in the system. That is why it is so difficult to controll all F1/Q1/F2/Q2 values exactly what we want them.


    Now if someone in college say I have access to symbolic math equation solver that I can solve this problem exactly. What he wil find is in order to get both Q values to be at 0.6 or lower, the enclosure may need to be so big or the driver needs to be so compliant that it becomes impractical. When we have one high Q and one low Q in your system, the ringing at the time domain is mainly determined by the high Q characteristics. That is why it is not a fair comparison for sealed and ported subs. Josh and other has tried to EQ a ported sub to a sealed sub in order to do subjective evaluation. Once you understand the big picture, you don't even bother to do that.
    I always feel dumber after reading one of Brian's posts, but sure makes me glad I'm a Rythmik owner

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Alternative to Ryhmik

    Quote Originally Posted by RythmikAudio View Post
    Phase and ring are related. You cannot get a system with high phase shift and yet give you no ringing in time domain. I understand most people treat some of the characteristics as if they have total degree of freedom. For instance, one thing I mentioned about ported sub is it has 4th order roll off. Most will think it is no big deal, I can live with that. But what i have not told you is 4th order has 2 Q values because a 4th order system can be thought of cascade of two 2nd order system with each 2nd order has a corner frequency F and a Q value. In other words, we have F1,F2,Q1,and Q2. Most will think he has complete freedom of picking F1, F2, Q1, and Q2. Unfortunately, it is not the case. So in reality, when some DIY picks a driver A and puts in a ported box B, most often he will get one high Q value and one low Q value. He cannot get low Q values for both both Q1 and Q2. The most commonly Q value combination is something like Q1=1.1 and Q2=0.6, or Q1=1.2 and Q2=0.5. Now you see the trend? If you try to reduce one Q, then the other Q pops up or if you want to make F1=15hz and keep Q1 and Q2 to the values you want, then F2 becomes 25hz. It is a constant game of seesaw.
    [EDIT]

    Another way to look at this problem is we compare sealed subs with ported subs. What is added to the system when we go from a sealed sub to a ported sub? The only thing we add is the port tuning frequnecy. That is, we add only one extra degree of freedom and yet we have two new variables F2, Q2 introduced in the system. That is why it is so difficult to controll all F1/Q1/F2/Q2 values exactly what we want them.


    Now if someone in college say I have access to symbolic math equation solver that I can solve this problem exactly. What he wil find is in order to get both Q values to be at 0.6 or lower, the enclosure may need to be so big or the driver needs to be so compliant that it becomes impractical. When we have one high Q and one low Q in your system, the ringing at the time domain is mainly determined by the high Q characteristics. That is why it is not a fair comparison for sealed and ported subs. Josh and other has tried to EQ a ported sub to a sealed sub in order to do subjective evaluation. Once you understand the big picture, you don't even bother to do that.
    Thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware. This helps a lot!

    I have one more followup question. All things being equal, the sealed designs will always be more accurate in terms of minimizing ringing. So the sealed subwoofers will best match my Sierra 2 speakers, which have exceptional transient response. I like the accurate sound of those speakers 98% of the time (sometimes that extra detail is too much on certain passages).


    1) So if I am after the most accurate in terms of a matching subwoofer to these speaker, is a sealed subwoofer always going to be the best choice in my situation? My primary use is for home theater and I have a dedicated theater room that is about 1660 cubic feet and sealed.

    2) If so, is it just a matter of choosing the right sized sealed subwoofer that can give me the maximum clean output I would want?

    For example, I think the loudest I would ever listen to a movie would be at reference volume, which can demand up to 115 dB peaks in the LFE channel. So the F12 will not be able to cleanly hit those levels, even in this smaller room with 2 or 4 of them. Multiple F15HPs would likely be able to do this though. Now I could go with multiple FVX15s and use them with one port plugged to probably get similar output capabilities and similar transient accuracy, but the F15HPs will technically still have a little better transient response. We already start to see the need for a ported subwoofer. I can get the same output for a bit cheaper, if I am okay with the extra ringing. But, if I had a larger room and still wanted to hit 115 dB peaks, then it gets even more difficult try to stay with a sealed subwoofer in my application. The reason everyone can't choose a sealed sub to give the most accuracy is because some will have larger rooms and may want to listen at reference volume and a sealed subwoofer will just be too big and too expensive to use, when a more efficient ported subwoofer can be made to give the output needed, with the tradeoff of not quite as accurate transient response.

    3) Is this a reasonable way to decide when to go with ported over sealed, if you want to maintain the most accurate transient response?
    Last edited by N Boros; 12-14-2016 at 11:42 AM.

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