Alternative to Ryhmik

[rsmt2000]

Any one tried a sealed power sound audio sub with ascend speakers?

[Octave]

Has anyone used both the SVS SB12-NSD and the Rythmik L12 with Sierra-2's, preferably in the same space and with the same gear? (Not at once.) I have read lots of glowing accounts of both subs, but for the moment I haven't read any relatively controlled impressions between the two. The SB12's have been on Black Friday sale ($400), so since that might evaporate at any time, that would be a factor that I should probably rule out. Not gonna rush a sub purchase!

This seemed like a good thread to ask and see if anyone with experience could weigh the strengths and weaknesses of the two speakers, specifically with the Sierra-2.

I would almost certainly not buy two subs up-front. This is my first rodeo and I am not gonna go big.

Please feel free to direct me to extant threads chez RTFM.

[N Boros]

Has anyone used both the SVS SB12-NSD and the Rythmik L12 with Sierra-2's, preferably in the same space and with the same gear? (Not at once.) I have read lots of glowing accounts of both subs, but for the moment I haven't read any relatively controlled impressions between the two. The SB12's have been on Black Friday sale ($400), so since that might evaporate at any time, that would be a factor that I should probably rule out. Not gonna rush a sub purchase!

This seemed like a good thread to ask and see if anyone with experience could weigh the strengths and weaknesses of the two speakers, specifically with the Sierra-2.

I would almost certainly not buy two subs up-front. This is my first rodeo and I am not gonna go big.

Please feel free to direct me to extant threads chez RTFM.

Hi Octave,

I haven't heard both subwoofers. However, I too have had SVS and Rythmik towards the top of my list for subwoofers I am considering in my dedicated theater room. I had gone back and forth between the two over the past couple of years, but some of the recent posts by Dave and Brian have pushed me over into the Rythmik camp. Typically if you compare some of the Rythmik models to other competing brands, you get about as much output for those other comparable subwoofers. What makes Rythmik an especially good value, in my opinion, is that they are also servo subs at almost the same price. Here is a post from Dave that nicely sums up the difference between Rythmik's approach and most others that simply use DSP to shape the frequency response and others that also add limiters to make sure that it is not over-driven.

DSP is not comparable to servo. DSP is one method (actually, a lesser expensive method these days) for equalizing / contouring the subwoofer's response as opposed to equalizing by analog means. It means the LFE signal that is being sent to the sub is once again converted to digital - then various filters are applied to the digital signal, and then it is once again converted to analog so it can be amplified and then sent to the woofer.

Regardless of how good the DAC's are - each time an analog signal is converted to digital and then back again, information is lost.

Servo is a real time solution whereby the woofer sends a continuous signal back to the amplifier, so that the amplifier makes sure the woofer is properly tracking the signal being sent to it.

DSP does not have any effect on overall sound quality other than adding additional features and a simpler way of implementing eq. In fact, because of the additional A/D D/A conversions, it has a negative effect on the purity of the original signal being sent. These days, there are way to many A/D D/A conversions taking place in the audio chain. DSP in a sub would be more beneficial if the LFE output itself were digital.

I'll take servo any day of the week when it comes to sound quality in a subwoofer.

This was taken from the following thread: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...udio-18s/page2. I suggest you look closely at the posts from posts 19 to 35 where Dave and Brian and discussing Rythmik's approach vs. others.

Here is another thread where Brian goes into more technical detail about some of the differences between SVS and Rythmik. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...VS-and-Rythmik. I must admit that some of it is still a bit over my head towards the end, but I have a rough idea of what he is saying. My takeaway was that there are multiple kinds of distortion that are more significant than THD. SVS does an exceptional job at getting THD very low, even when the subwoofer is close to its output limits. But, it does this at the expense of other distortions that are a bigger problems when the sub is close to its output limits. Most other subwoofers don't even address these distortions at all.

[sludgeogre]

My takeaway was that there are multiple kinds of distortion that are more significant than THD. SVS does an exceptional job at getting THD very low, even when the subwoofer is close to its output limits. But, it does this at the expense of other distortions that are a bigger problems when the sub is close to its output limits. Most other subwoofers don't even address these distortions at all.

I think this is a pretty good summation of that thread and of what SVS and other companies are currently doing. Rythmik really stands out in comparison to them because of all of the distortions they are addressing.

From what I see through reviews and other forums is that some people prefer the added distortion of the many subwoofers out there, since so many people like bloated, overly warm, overly-long decay bass. I have met far too many people, especially those in car audio, that don't care for accurate reproduction of bass, they just want a lot of it, and they can't tell added distortion from accuracy. I read head-fi quite a bit as well, and the few guys that get into dedicated stereo have a huge problem with most subwoofers, because they're so used to extremely precise bass that high-end heaphone systems provide. It's really hard to get bass as accurate as the LCD-4 and HE-6 and other legendary headphones provide it. To my ears, Rythmik really nails it.

If you want accuracy and tight bass when called for, Rythmik should always be at the top of your list.

[N Boros]

From what I see through reviews and other forums is that some people prefer the added distortion of the many subwoofers out there, since so many people like bloated, overly warm, overly-long decay bass. I have met far too many people, especially those in car audio, that don't care for accurate reproduction of bass, they just want a lot of it, and they can't tell added distortion from accuracy.

I think that you are right. I have heard this same criticism from some people about Ascend speakers as well. Some have described them as "dry", where you don't get as much sound as you did before on other speakers. But, if Ascend and Rythmik are giving you more accuracy, less distortion and less overhang because the drivers can start and stop more quickly, which allows you to hear more detail in the soundtrack, then that is generally something I would prefer. So in fact, the criticism of them sounding "dry" is not quite true. Often you end up hearing more than you did before.

I was happy with my Sierra 2s when I first got them and most times they sound fantastic, but there are some instances where I didn't like extra detail I was hearing. For example, on the intro song to the HBO series "Boardwalk Empire" there is a guitar playing. I had listened to this many times on my old Axiom speakers and never before heard the guitar player's fingers dragging and sliding on the strings and he plays. Usually something like this would new and exciting because it is something new that I had never heard before on something I was quite familiar with. However, for whatever reason I found it distracting. That was something that jumped out front and center and I found it kind of irritating. This is the only case I have run into where the extra detail was not welcomed though.

I'm reminded of a couple of reviews that point out these traits of the Rythmik subwoofers ability to be more clean and yet maybe not be as in-your-face exciting as some other subwoofers might be:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...3-ultra-4.html

A little down from the top of that page is a review by Jim Wilson he compares the Rythmik e15hp to the SVS sb13 Ultra. Here are a couple of comments that stood out to me:

Comment when listening to music: "In contrast to the SB13U the E15HP almost seemed weak at times but it was just stealthy, providing a more distinct and clear sound for the most part. I could have "thickened" it up some by choosing the Low tuning configuration, but I chose not to. You could tell a music connoisseur designed this one, because the accuracy and precision were uncanny."

Comment when listening to movie: "The E15HP went about its business in a more low-key manner, but it was no less potent. Deep bass was sneaky; just as you start to think it could use a bit more oomph you realize that the floor is vibrating."

Jim Wilson also reviewed the Rythmik LV12R here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...er-review.html

Comment when listening to music: "I have a confession to make; I think music on the LV12R sounds wonderful. Why am I saying it like that? Because I've always believed acoustic suspension designs trump bass reflex when it comes to music (and I still do). Rare is the ported subwoofer which can satisfy my demanding musical requirements, but the LV12R did just that."

Comments when listening to movies: "...the depth and clarity of the blast was spectacular. I both heard and felt a nice deep rumble."

"Whether it was the Balrogs roar, the crumbling staircases or the foreboding rumbles that are the underpinnings of this scene all of it seemed to be in the proper proportions, with excellent definition"



Quite a long time ago Ilkka reviewed a DIY version of the Rythmik 12" sealed subwoofer (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...html#post48248 ) and said the following:

"I don't want to say a lot of subjective comments about its sound because the listening room and personal preference affect a lot to it. I can say that its sound is slightly drier than what we usually hear with other subwoofers. That might be a good or bad thing, depending what kind of sound one likes."


Since I use my home theater much more for movies than music, I am strongly leaning towards a ported version of the Rythmik. I haven't heard anyone say that they didn't like the sound of the ported Rythmik subs with movies and all have said they even think they are excellent with music. So they are likely more clean sounding than most other subs, not having all of that extra distortion. But, I still want the slightly fuller sound that the ported Rythmik subs with have in comparison to the sealed Rythmiks to give you, even if it is just a smidge less accurate in terms of transient response. The comment from Jim, "The E15HP went about its business in a more low-key manner, but it was no less potent. Deep bass was sneaky; just as you start to think it could use a bit more oomph you realize that the floor is vibrating", was what I am thinking about specifically here. I would prefer to get the slight bit more oomph and have the floor vibrating without losing too much accuracy. I think that the ported Rythmiks or adjusting the bass damping factor on the sealed will likely give you this. The other reason I think I would prefer the ported Rythmik over a sealed Rythmik is that many home theater soundtracks can be quite demanding and it is much more economical to get output from a ported subwoofer (above the port tuning) compared to a sealed design. If my priority was music, I would definitely lean more towards a sealed Rythmik though, just for the extra accuracy and because I wouldn't need the extra output headroom.

[sludgeogre]

Quite the post N Boros! I agree with you on pretty much everything, as well as the reviewers. It's especially crazy when you think "hey I could use some more output" and then realize your guts are shaking when you turn it up. Getting used to that tactile sound is really interesting. You expect the bloat and warm-ness to be there, so when it isn't, it takes you a minute to realize what just happened.

This reminds me of a post in the AVS forum, in the Ascend Acoustics thread, where a guy was used to his B&W speakers for many years and just couldn't get used to the way the Sierra-2 sounded because he was expecting the "smile shaped" EQ curve that B&W generally adheres to. He just couldn't live without it. The accuracy felt dry to him in the same way you mentioned. I've always been going for increasingly accurate and neutral sound, so that preference just didn't make any sense to me, but hey, to each their own.

I have dual F12's and use them 99% for movies. I went with sealed because it was just always something I've wanted since I've become addicted to musical and movie accuracy. In addition, you actually get more extension with a sealed design. The F12's can get down to subsonic frequencies with the rumble filter off. I'm also moving into a small theater room, so I don't need that much output. Even in the largish-open room that I'm in now, I still run them at half volume and down a few dB in Audyssey. I could see there being a problem if I only used one sub, but with two it's a dream.

[billy p]

And this is why Jim now owns a JTR S1...just saying boys....

[curtis]

And this is why Jim now owns a JTR S1...just saying boys....

That JTR seems like a good value.

[RythmikAudio]

If you ask Jim what he listens to, his reply has always been the unit he currently reviews. So for Jim, the definition of "owning" a sub is different from listening to it every day. My customers often ask me which model do I have in my system. My answer is similar to Jim: the one that I'd like to get long term evaluation of the sound characteristics.

BTW, we do have a plan to introduce F18HP. It is not going to have the same output as S1, but we can offer all 3 different finishes. The price will be $200 more expensive than F15HP. The enclosure will be heavily braced.

[Octave]

I appreciate the interesting replies, gents.

Sub acquisition is inevitable, though I might be upgrading some of my electronics first. I will be asking some noob questions about that elsewhere here, I'm sure.