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Thread: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor!

  1. #1041
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    5

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor!

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicHead View Post
    At the cost of sounding a snob, I do not think that low cost receiver would do justice to the Luna.

    Plus, if the goal is a 2-ch system, why spend money on features (and whimpy amps with an overtaxed and designed for cost power supply) you'll never use?

    Accessory4less is a great option, but then why not one of their 2-ch amps? There are many at a very affordable price. Any of them I bet would run circles in 2-ch around a receiver in the same price range:

    https://www.accessories4less.com/?ty...tore_price.asc
    I agree with this completely. Not only is their amplification lacking as others have stated, but most AVR preamp sections are also not transparent enough. I had been using a Denon AVR-X4100W (which retailed for $1500 when it was new) with external amplification and external Dirac Live room correction, so I was using it as a preamp/DAC only. The review of the Anthem MRX 720 in this thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nt-stereo.html) got me curious. I swapped out the Denon for the Anthem, still only using the Anthem as a DAC/processor, and the difference was immediate. That AVS thread describes the difference much better than I can but the Anthem made instruments sound much more convincing and real.

    Amplification requirements definitely depend on the room, speaker distance to the user, user listening preferences, and whether or not bass management is being used with a subwoofer, but I did hear a noticeable difference in impact when upgrading from the Outlaw 7140 (7 x 140W) to the Anthem Statement P5 (5 x 325 W) in my large room with Sierra RAAL Towers (which are more efficient than the Lunas) positioned about 10ft away from my ear. Personally I wouldn't skimp on amplification for the Lunas unless you have them positioned near field or don't listen very loud.
    Ascend Acoustics Sierra RAAL Towers w/ Mapleshade 4" Maple Platforms ・ Sierra RAAL Horizon w/ Mapleshade 2" Center Channel Maple Platform ・ Sierra Luna satellites x4
    Rythmik FV18 subwoofer x2
    Anthem MRX 720 ・ miniDSP DDRC-88BM with Dirac Live ・ Anthem Statement P5
    Sony VPL-HW45ES

  2. #1042
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    When I was first setting up my Luna’s earlier this year, I recall guidance to set the pre’s speaker setting to small and adjust the xover to 80Hz.

    I have read in a number of posts in the AVSForum Subwoofers threads that recommend a xover at 1 octave above the low frequency spec for the speaker. I understand the Luna low frequency response to be 60Hz. So this would yield a xover setting of 120Hz. I understand that there is increased potential of sub localization over 100Hz.

    What is the rationale for the Ascend proposed 80Hz xover vs. a 1 octave (120Hz) setting?

    Oh - I am sure your team has been swamped with the S-2EX ramp. Congrats on another well regarding speaker, but there are a number of us who are eager to get our hands on the Luan Duo. Can you share any update on this?

  3. #1043
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    USA
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    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    Quote Originally Posted by Jed-99aggie View Post
    When I was first setting up my Luna’s earlier this year, I recall guidance to set the pre’s speaker setting to small and adjust the xover to 80Hz.

    I have read in a number of posts in the AVSForum Subwoofers threads that recommend a xover at 1 octave above the low frequency spec for the speaker. I understand the Luna low frequency response to be 60Hz. So this would yield a xover setting of 120Hz. I understand that there is increased potential of sub localization over 100Hz.

    What is the rationale for the Ascend proposed 80Hz xover vs. a 1 octave (120Hz) setting?

    Oh - I am sure your team has been swamped with the S-2EX ramp. Congrats on another well regarding speaker, but there are a number of us who are eager to get our hands on the Luan Duo. Can you share any update on this?
    Thanks for the kind words on our Sierra-2EX!

    It is just the opposite actually, there is no rationale or science to back up the claim that a speaker should be crossed over at a full octave above the "Low Frequency Spec". How exactly does one define the "low frequency spec" of a loudspeaker? -3dB? -6dB? -10dB? How does one take into account the different bass alignments of speakers, meaning how quickly or slowly the bass rolls off (the slope)?

    The rationale for using an 80Hz crossover was determined by Dolby Labs over 3 decades ago and was based on localization studies in typical size rooms.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  4. #1044
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    45

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Thanks for the kind words on our Sierra-2EX!

    It is just the opposite actually, there is no rationale or science to back up the claim that a speaker should be crossed over at a full octave above the "Low Frequency Spec". How exactly does one define the "low frequency spec" of a loudspeaker? -3dB? -6dB? -10dB? How does one take into account the different bass alignments of speakers, meaning how quickly or slowly the bass rolls off (the slope)?

    The rationale for using an 80Hz crossover was determined by Dolby Labs over 3 decades ago and was based on localization studies in typical size rooms.
    I think these are two different questions. What is ideal for localization? What is ideal for a specific speaker (in this case, the Luna)?

    What is the ideal crossover frequency to single channel bass ignoring main speaker characteristics?
    - This is 80Hz maximum according to Dolby's studies, since otherwise the single channel bass (subwoofer) can be localized. Even assuming the bass can be localized only at 100hz, a crossover is not a brick wall, but a slope. So a sub crossed at 80hz is still producing output at 100hz and even higher. Of course, the main speakers quickly overtake the sub output, providing correct localization queues. Hence, 80hz or lower is ideal.

    This ignores the speaker characteristics though. Assume you have a speaker with a -6dB point of 200hz. Crossing it at 80hz with a sub isn't a good recommendation anymore. You'd need to cross a lot higher and compromise on localization.

    Since a crossover is a slope, I can see the rationale for one octave about the -3dB point, though that's rather arbitrary as Dave points out. The crossover slope is only perfect at all points if the speaker is perfectly flat at all points within the crossover range. If you had a magical speaker that did that, you wouldn't need a sub at all! So really you just want the crossover to roll the speaker off enough to no longer contribute much information where it is no longer sufficiently flat. You need to then make a lot of assumptions about what is acceptable to then come up with a hard rule like one octave. As Dave points out, the -3dB of the speaker may not be the relevant point in calculating what is ideal for a given speaker.

    And so the simple answer is: When possible given a speaker's performance, cross at 80hz (or lower) to avoid localization. There is no simple rule for when this is possible.

    But consider the options:
    - Set to a 120hz crossover. The bass will be localizable nearly all the time. This is not ideal.
    - Set to 80hz crossover. The Luna is now expected to produce only a small amount of output at 60hz. It may produce slightly less than that small amount due to its natural rolloff, but this will be so slight that you won't notice it. A fraction of a dB in total output loss. And your room will cause multi-dB fluctuations in bass frequencies. And if you use room eq to fix bass, you can also have your eq bump up the 60hz output of the Luna. Since it is crossed over, you're still sending a very attenuated signal at 60hz, even if you have eq gain at that frequency.

  5. #1045
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    Thanks Dave and Fantom for your inputs. I'll continue to fidget with the settings.

    What prompted my question is that when I started to increase the xover on the Luna from 80 to 100 and even 120, I was more pleased with the bass response (as well as more perceived clarity in the mids from the Lunas). Since the higher Xover result seemed to improve my setup, I am concerned that perhaps I am missing some other crucial step in the setup.

    For me bass has not yet presented out of place or localized. I am running 3 subs (2 x Rythmik F12 & 1 x Martin Logan) which I have attempted to time align (MiniDSP) and position for optimized room response.

    There is one area that I am struggling to tweak from the Lunas which is the sound stage. It does stereo imaging well (e.g. positioning vocals dead center). I have on more than 1 occasion checked to see if the center channel was playing. However, I am not yet able to depict is any spacial arragement of the band or depth in a recording. I do not have any special sound treatment, other than rug and a number of open doorways on 60% of the room's boundaries.

    What would be your suggestions to further tune the Lunas capabilities?

  6. #1046
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    45

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    The room interaction is extremely important for bass. This includes speaker/sub placement, room reflections/treatment, and EQ.

    It sounds like you've put a lot of time into multi-sub setup with MiniDSP to achieve an even bass response. I'd then guess that your bass experience with a higher crossover has more to do with your speaker/room interaction than the Luna itself. That is, ~100hz bass may be more even from your 3 subs than when emanating from your Luna's placement. You might try moving the Luna's around in your room. If that's not possible, then a higher crossover point may be right for your setup.

    I only have a single sub and ended up with somewhat the opposite. I was able to achieve incredibly consistent position-to-position bass response from ~70hz down. However, ~80hz was lacking at my main listening position. I couldn't simply EQ it up because then it was far too loud in other places around the room. Luckily, ~60hz and up works great coming from my LCR speakers. So I cross the Sierra-2EX at 60hz.

    I chose 60hz vs 80hz crossover due to my specific setup. Not due to the specifications of the speakers or the sub, both of which can easily handle those frequencies.

    As for depth, that needs to be in the recording to start with. While stereo imaging will always be present, depth queues must either be recorded from distant mics in a real environment or simulated. If you have good recordings that should have depth, then typically the best way to hear that depth is to hear the speakers more than your room. Room treatments can certainly help, but a simple free experiment is to move your speakers really close to you. Nearfield listening. This may not be practical for a space you live in, but as an experiment, try pulling your Lunas closer to you than they are to the back wall. But keep them as wide as they are now. You can even pull them out much too far. To your sides almost. That will sound bad, but from there you can slowly move them a half foot at a time away from you and towards the front wall. At some point they will still be really close to you, but just far enough away to image. Then you'll be hearing more speaker than room. The trick then is to try and achieve that with reasonable speaker placement that isn't in the middle of your floor.

  7. #1047
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,050

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor! - Luna Setup w/ Sub

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
    The room interaction is extremely important for bass. This includes speaker/sub placement, room reflections/treatment, and EQ.

    It sounds like you've put a lot of time into multi-sub setup with MiniDSP to achieve an even bass response. I'd then guess that your bass experience with a higher crossover has more to do with your speaker/room interaction than the Luna itself. That is, ~100hz bass may be more even from your 3 subs than when emanating from your Luna's placement. You might try moving the Luna's around in your room. If that's not possible, then a higher crossover point may be right for your setup.

    I only have a single sub and ended up with somewhat the opposite. I was able to achieve incredibly consistent position-to-position bass response from ~70hz down. However, ~80hz was lacking at my main listening position. I couldn't simply EQ it up because then it was far too loud in other places around the room. Luckily, ~60hz and up works great coming from my LCR speakers. So I cross the Sierra-2EX at 60hz.

    I chose 60hz vs 80hz crossover due to my specific setup. Not due to the specifications of the speakers or the sub, both of which can easily handle those frequencies.

    As for depth, that needs to be in the recording to start with. While stereo imaging will always be present, depth queues must either be recorded from distant mics in a real environment or simulated. If you have good recordings that should have depth, then typically the best way to hear that depth is to hear the speakers more than your room. Room treatments can certainly help, but a simple free experiment is to move your speakers really close to you. Nearfield listening. This may not be practical for a space you live in, but as an experiment, try pulling your Lunas closer to you than they are to the back wall. But keep them as wide as they are now. You can even pull them out much too far. To your sides almost. That will sound bad, but from there you can slowly move them a half foot at a time away from you and towards the front wall. At some point they will still be really close to you, but just far enough away to image. Then you'll be hearing more speaker than room. The trick then is to try and achieve that with reasonable speaker placement that isn't in the middle of your floor.
    Excellent post!!!
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  8. #1048
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,050

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor!

    And so it begins....

    First few Duo centers have been assembled.

    We are still waiting for packaging to arrive but Dina will be calling / emailing everyone on the interest list to formalize orders so we can start processing, billing, shipping etc.

    I hope to have the Duo added to the site within the next 1-2 weeks, but please be patient.

    Intro pricing:

    Duo center = $798 + $26 UPS ground shipping (continental US)
    Duo pair = $1598 + $36 UPS ground shipping (continental US)

    Pricing will be going up after this production run is sold through as our prices are going up on everything...

    Big thanks to everyone for their patience!
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  9. #1049
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    184

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor!

    Excellent news, Dave!

    Quick question/recommendation -- Luna Duo for center or upgrade my current Sierra 2 to the EX?
    Last edited by racrawford65; 08-27-2019 at 02:01 AM.

  10. #1050
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    18

    Default Re: Introducing the Luna Mini Monitor!

    If we want to get in on that first production run pricing, do we need to send Dina an email or should we wait until the site is updated?

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