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Thread: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Thanks for pointing this out. I am finding out that I should use rear bipolar, or other more diffuse speakers for a 5.1 rear wall system. I theoretically agree.
    In wall or flush mount would be a big bonus. I wish more speaker manufacturers would provide frequency graphs.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    According to their own specs, if you cross at 80hz, you will have a hole in the response.

    Why do you think you need bi/quad-polars for surrounds?
    Not necessarily due to room gain, right? Also, they are very close to the listening position so they won't be pushed near their limits and room EQ like Audessey should have no problem compensating for a dip like that from 95-80hz.

    Bipoles/dipoles/quadpoles are very useful when there's not adequate distance for monopole speaker placement and they end up being distracting rather then enveloping.Yes, if there's room, every speaker should be a matched monopole.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    The notion of needing diffused sound from surrounds comes from before surrounds were discrete channels.

    With discrete channels and direct/monopoles, if the sound mixer/engineer wants a diffused sound, he/she could create it. The converse is not true with bi/quad polar speakers...you will never get direct sound when it's called for.

    Most surround mixing/engineering is done with direct radiating speakers.

    Jusr my thoughts. I haven't experienced your room/system.
    Last edited by curtis; 10-15-2015 at 06:15 AM.
    -curtis

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    I have read on several sources and from a speaker designer friend, that 5.1 systems with the surrounds on the rear wall, work better with Bi/quad polar speakers, with this reasoning:

    In an ideal 5.1 system the direct surrounds are on the sides and will provide "surround" effects. In the rear placement the direct radiating speakers can have beaming that creates anomalous effects. The diffuse sounds of a bipolar has more of an ambient effect with less surround sensation. An acceptable compromise from the ideal.

    Now, all this will be better than my current room with ceiling speakers in the wrong place. Put there by the idiot who worked for the home builder (All four surrounds in front of my seating position).

    A big also is the SAF. When offered options the S. greatly prefers the flush mount Bi/Quad speakers.

    The Golden Ear Invisa MPX in-walls are in the running (scroll down) I have contacted Golden Ear for a frequency graph. The grills can be painted to match.
    http://www.goldenear.com/products/invisa-series

    Thanks for sharing your time.
    B.
    Last edited by Blutarsky; 10-15-2015 at 08:21 AM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    According to their own specs, if you cross at 80hz, you will have a hole in the response.

    Why do you think you need bi/quad-polars for surrounds?

    While timbre matching surrounds may not be as crucial as the front stage, once you have timbre matching all the way around, you will think otherwise.

    You are paying good money, and made an effort to have an excellent front stage...I would try and get close timbre matching.

    Have you tried the HTM-200SE?
    I agree with Curtis here. The HTM-200se's might just work well for your purposes. They are wall mountable, just like the QS8's and will better timbre match the front speakers.

    However, if he does decide to go with the QS8's I think he will be fine with an 80 to 90 Hz crossover though. I owned them several years ago and had them crossed over at 80 Hz (since my receiver only had a global crossover) and didn't notice a hole in the response. I didn't run bass sweeps or measure it or anything. But nothing really jumped out at me. I think that since most people will wall mount the QS8's, they will get some boundary reinforcement that does nicely extend the lower end response just a bit to either get rid of the hole in the response, or make it small enough that it really is not noticeable. Just going off of the anechoic measurements it should only be a small hole anyways.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    On another note, gonna replace the PC-2000 with a Submersive F2!! Especially with room gain in my tiny room, should give me insane lower frequency performance down to the single digits without breaking a sweat.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Quote Originally Posted by yesplease View Post
    On another note, gonna replace the PC-2000 with a Submersive F2!! Especially with room gain in my tiny room, should give me insane lower frequency performance down to the single digits without breaking a sweat.
    Don't you have basically an 11' by 14' sealed room? If that is the case, then Submersive is overkill for your room. You might be able to achieve the same results will a much lesser expensive pair of subs that are also quite a bit smaller. Putting aside how there is not a whole lot of content below 20 Hz, if you really want to get extension down into the single digits you might just get some of the lesser expensive sealed subs from either Rythmik, SVS or Powersound audio. The fact that you could get a small sealed sub to work well in your room, seems like it would be something to factor in, since you don't have a lot of extra room. I would guess that in that small of a theater, that if you find a sealed sub that extends down flat to around 40 Hz, then the room gain will fill in the gradual roll-off to where it does extend down flat to quite far below 20 Hz. All that you need to make sure of is that the pair of subs you choose has enough headroom in your room. The Powersound audio XS15se for only $800 each should easily give you more than enough headroom. The SVS SB13 Ultra for about double the price, if you wanted a nicer finish, should as well. Look at the specs of them on data-bass (http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&type=0 ). The sealed Rythimks with 15 inch drivers could easily do this as well. All of these would be lesser expensive options that are quite a bit smaller than the Submersive sub.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    Don't you have basically an 11' by 14' sealed room? If that is the case, then Submersive is overkill for your room.
    Tell that to the guys who have 2 of these beasts in rooms smaller than mine

    First off, let me say that I'm a bassaholic and I usually watch movies at -5 to -6db with the sub running 4-5db hot. I'm also a believer in "better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it."

    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    Putting aside how there is not a whole lot of content below 20 Hz,
    For the kind of movies that I usually watch (action/adventure), there's tons movies with scenes that have awesome <20hz content. Just a few that I've watched in the past couple of weeks: War of the Worlds, first Avengers (2nd one had an awful LFE track), Minority Report, Transformers.

    Many times hearing/feeling those <20hz scenes are my favorite parts of the movie. So I need excellent low frequency performance with the ability to hit peaks of 105-110db at <20hz with very low distortion(the F2 has crazy-low distortion levels, even when pushed hard).

    After spending 100+ hours researching and talking to people at the subwoofer companies (from regular techs to the designer of the sub), no other sealed sub, or combination of 2 sealed subs under $2000-$2300, will fit my needs. Here's why:

    1. Output: No 2 sealed subs (even colocated which wouldn't be an option for me) would give me as much output at low frequencies as a single F2. Let's take the SB-13 Ultra because it's the size I need: CEA 2010: 83db at 10hz, 92db at 16hz, and 96db at 20hz, and that's pushing the sub to the limit. Room gain is not going to give me 10-20dbs so even if I get 2 of them, that would only add 2-3dbs(colocated would only add 5-6dbs) at a cost of $3200.

    2. Size: The F2 is only 16" deep x 24" wide. That depth of only 16" is insane and gives me exactly what I need for my small room. It could go vertically in the FR corner, horizontally under the TV, vertically or horizontally on either side wall, vertically or horizontally on the back. All of those positions are good options without sticking it out into the room and being obtrusive like most subwoofers, cylinders excluded.

    3. 1 dual sub with stacked drivers, works better for me than 2 single subs, or 1 sub with opposed drivers: Nearfield placement really bothers me and I hate it. I'm betting the F2 will work very well in either of the 2 positions on the front wall. If not I can move it along one of the side walls and it should work and be far enough away from me.

    Subs with opposed drivers are much much larger in the depth dimension than the F2.

    Dual subs from Rythmik, Hsu, SVS or Powersouny audio, would be much harder to place and take up more floorspace than the F2. Also, they still would not be able to get close to the lower range output from the F2.

    4. Value: The F2 with a used 1000 watt amp is only $1650 + shipping $100-$200. IMHO, this is an exceptional value and a chance to get one of the best subwoofers in the world for the price of $1650 + shipping is awesome (IMHO).

    There is no need for me to get it with the 2400watt or 4000watt amp. Even with the original 1000 watt amp, I should have lots of headroom.

    5. Looks: This one is really subjective, but I think it's one of the best looking subwoofers under $5000. My wife also agrees, "it looks pretty with the rounded edges". I think it would also look terrific on it's side under the TV.

    6. Made in US, vs China for most of the other options. Not really a big deal, but it's definitely a plus for me.

    So the bottom line is that it fits my needs perfectly with exceptional performance, flexibility, value, and WAF.
    Last edited by yesplease; 10-16-2015 at 10:01 AM.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Quote Originally Posted by yesplease View Post
    4. Value: The F2 with a used 1000 watt amp is only $1650 + shipping $100-$200. IMHO, this is an exceptional value and a chance to get one of the best subwoofers in the world for the price of $1650 + shipping is awesome (IMHO).

    There is no need for me to get it with the 2400watt or 4000watt amp. Even with the original 1000 watt amp, I should have lots of headroom.
    Okay this makes a little more sense now. I thought you were going for the 2400 or 4000 Watt versions which are over $2000 and kept thinking of the size of your small room. $1600 is a great price for that sub, with those output capabilities. Just be a little careful about what some Bassheads at AVS say. For example I remember a recent thread with one guy who built 8,10, or 12 massive DIY subs with 18" drivers and many amplifiers with thousands of watts of power driving each one bragging about how he enjoys hitting 125dB, 130dB, 135dB. I remember commenting that he is likely doing hearing damage. Yet he and other similar folks are often the ones that are very vocal about how much subwoofer is needed for different people in different applications.

    It sounds like you did you homework though, so I'm sure you will have excellent bass response in your room. I too am a basshead and really can't wait to get a couple of Rythmik FV15HPs for my room. I have a much larger 6500 cubic foot space to pressurize though, which is why I want these massive subs.

  10. #20
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    Oct 2015
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    Default Re: Can't decide between Horizon LCR, or Sierra 2s LR with Horizon C

    Yea, some of those guys are insane. Thankfully, I'm not as crazy as them. Hearing loss and angry neighbours is not on my todo list. I just want nice clean and tight bass that will blend well with the fronts and be loud enough all the way down to 10-5hz.

    That Rhythmic sub was my choice if I went ported. It's an exceptional performer and great bang for the buck. I wish that Data Bass had tested the current version with the new amp (and driver?).

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