Sierra Towers /w RAAL + Horizon amplification

[jjanosik]

Hello everyone,

I'm planning on purchasing 2 Towers /w RAAL and RAAL Horizon for 3.0 HT (sub will be added later probably) and music.

My remaining budget for the amplification is limited to 2500$ (I prefer it to be cheaper without hurting sound quality if it's possible).

I would like this to last for quite a long time because it is a lot of money compared to the salaries in my country.

Firstly I was thinking about Emotiva combo, but I have read here
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...hlight=emotiva
that Emotiva stuff with ribbon tweeter is too bright. I'm from Europe so I can't test it and I'm essentially without a warranty because shipping is half the price of the amp alone. So I don't know whether it is wise to try Emotiva without the option of returning it.

Other options I came up with after some reasearch are these:
Pioneer SC LX88
Marantz 7009
Anthem MRX 710
Cambridge audio azur 751r
Denon AVR-X5200W
YAMAHA RX-A3040
Arcam AVR450

Cheap receiver + 5 channel amp (Rotel RMB-1565? or is there another 5 channel amp around 1000-1500?)
cheap receiver + stereo amp... What to do with the Horizon?

I have read several reviews about all of them but opinions differ on which sound better. I would really appreciate someone with the real experience of these receivers and RAAL Towers.

Can you please recommend me something which will sound good with RAAL Sierra towers and Horizon? Right now I'm not thinking about expanding it into a 5.1 setup, but it is possible in the future (again I want this stuff to last).


Thank you very much for your responses.

[Kisakuku]

If you are planning to use room correction functions, Denon X5200 is a good receiver. Also, none of your amplification choices will have any effect on tweeters sounding bright or not.

[FirstReflect]

You might not like what I'm about to say, but I think it's a good thing to consider none-the-less:

Right now is a spectacularly good time to WAIT if you are considering the purchase of a high end AV Receiver or Pre-Pro. However, that statement only applies if you have any interest what-so-ever in keeping said AV Receiver or Pre-Pro longer than a year or two AND you think there's a possibility that you might want to get into this whole "4K" UltraHD business during your period of ownership. Waiting just a few more weeks will also allow you to find out what DTS has in store for us on the Immersive Audio front. DTS will have an announcement about their DTS:X format some time in March - very possibly this coming week. After DTS has officially unveiled DTS:X, manufacturers will be free to tell us which (if any) currently available models will be upgradeable. Right this moment, we do not know for 100% certain, although the flagship Denon AVR-X7200 AV Receiver and Marantz AV8802 Pre-Pro appear to be almost certain as getting DTS:X, plus those two models are 100% certain to be getting full 18 Gbps HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 copy protection hardware upgrades.

The AVR-X7200 and AV8802 are both almost certainly out of your price range though. And by all appearances, NO OTHER models will be getting HDCP 2.2 or DTS:X upgrades. I could be wrong about that; I hope I am since I own a Denon AVR-X5200 myself. But that's how things are looking at the moment.

So here's the thing: if you do not care even a tiny bit about ever possibly using 4K or DTS:X Immersive Audio, then it's ok to buy something right now. But I just want everyone to be aware of these things. Because if you're planning to keep your new AV Receiver or Pre-Pro for several years, it's very likely you'll want support of one or both of these things. HDCP 2.2 and DTS:X (along with Dolby Atmos, of course) will be showing up in LOTS of 2015 AV Receivers and Pre-Pros. So if you are able to wait a few months, this summer will be a much, much better time to buy.

So, with all of that said, I happen to really like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT and Audyssey Dynamic EQ. Due to that preference of mine, I tend to favour Denon and Marantz these days. It doesn't hurt that Denon and Marantz are also pushing the hardest right now to support as many formats and features as possible. They're the only major consumer level brands offering support for Auro-3D Immersive Audio right now. And, as I said, their X7200 and AV8802 appear to be the only current models that will be offering HDCP 2.2 and DTS:X upgrades.

So in your list there, the X5200 is based on Denon's "made in Japan" platform and, on paper, has the better built-in amps. Meanwhile, the Marantz SR7009 is based on the "made in China" platform (also used for the Denon AVR-X4100 and Marantz AV7702 Pre-Pro). That said, the SR7009 has 7.1 analogue audio inputs, the AVR-X5200 does not.

As I mentioned, I own the AVR-X5200, and it powers my three custom Horizon RAAL speakers perfectly well.

All of THAT aside, though, I'm hugely impressed with the Yamaha A3040. It is a magnificent piece of gear. I am a crazy person, and I enjoy making use of Front Wide speakers. The Yamaha A3040 does not support the use of Front Wide speakers, and that is literally the only reason I did not buy it rather than the Denon X5200.

So...if you know for certain that you do not care about HDCP 2.2 so that you can use your Receiver with 4K sources, and you also know for certain that you do not care about DTS:X Immersive Audio, then I can highly recommend the Yamaha A3040 and the Denon X5200. But if either of those features is of ANY interest to you at all, then wait. It won't be a terribly long wait. It's all falling into place this year. But I'd hate to see you spend this much money only to be instantly obsolete. There's just no value in that.

I hope that's of some help,

Rob H.

[jjanosik]

FirstReflect thank you very much for your detailed response. Actually I'm aware of HDCP 2.2 and I was thinking about waiting for some HDCP 2.2 compatible receivers to be announced. But my friend told me that it is possible that most of the 4k content will be available from streaming services (Netflix) and when it comes to 4k blu-ray players they will have separate audio output probably, because it is not wise to force everyone to upgrade their receivers just because of HDCP 2.2.

With that said I'm willing to wait for HDCP 2.2 compatible receivers, but I would like buy new speakers before December (when 4k blu-ray players are announced if I'm correct?). I was planning to buy speakers and receiver in June, but I don't know whether there will be HDCP 2.2 receivers by then or not.

When the new HDCP 2.2 receivers are announced should I trust their previous iteration about sound quality (that the successor of Denon X5200 or Yamaha 3040 will be the same in the audio quality but with something new)?

Is there an audible difference in sound quality among these receivers? Because some people say that Cambridge audio 751r is the best sounding but does not have a good room correction (is it more important that sound quality?), others say that something else is better sounding etc. I'm quite new in this whole audio stuff so I don't know...

Thanks

[bkdc]

There is no discernible sound difference among solid state amplifiers that are driven well within their intended power envelopes. Any difference in sound will be from the the sound processing or room correction or EQ settings of the receivers. Even with less expensive amplifiers, you're looking at signal to noise ratios that are well above what is needed and crosstalk and harmonic distortion that cannot be heard. As long as your amplifier has enough power, you'll be fine. I prefer to have separate amplifiers and a pre-amp receiver, but this is a more expensive option. I will probably never need to upgrade my class-D amplifiers, but the processing technology in my pre-amp will eventually get outdated. I am overrun with spare amplifiers from all my DIY projects but I will find a way to put them to use.

[jjanosik]

bkdc do you think there is any plausible separates solution under 2500$? Besides emotiva, because I don't want to risk that without warranty...

I have just found that cambridge audio announced new line of receivers with HDCP 2.2 last month... I like that RCX200 has 170w into 2 channels or 120w into 7 channels... It does not have Atmos or any other 'ceiling' sound solution and I believe they don't use room correction software (they used Audyssey 2EQ in their last 751r receiver, but I think they just dropped it). I think their 751r was known for very good sound quality and powerful output for a receiver... so the question is, do I really need a room correction or this ceiling audio stuff? I'm sure I will not use any ceiling speakers within next 5-7 years at least, if ever... and even then it has 7.1 analogue direct so I can use new receiver for Atmos or whatever and this receiver for other 7 channels... am I correct?
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/cx-series

[bkdc]

7 channels under 2500? That's possible if you pick an affordable multi-channel amplifier. You definitely won't be able to get 7 monoblocks. Outlaw Audio or Emotiva are options for affordable multi-channel class B amplifiers. The 'audiophiles' cling to class A or class A/B for theoretical advantages, but in real life performance, there is no advantage over modern class D technology (the dominant class-D players are Hypex, Pascal, ICEpower, and Anaview) while there are a lot of disadvantages -- the primary issues being weight and power efficiency. The Outlaw 7075 or 7125 are excellent values in class B multi-channel amps. I'm perfectly happy with 5.2 channels. I've tried 7.2 channel and I didn't really notice a significant improvement. I have no experience with the ceiling channels and I'm a little skeptical about it. I also care more about sound from multi-channel SACD or HD-Audio then I do about the multi-channel from movies.

Yes, you can use any receiver/amplifier for 7 channels if you're not using ceiling speakers. The options for output will be L, C, R, Surround Left, Surround right, Rear Left, Rear Right. Sometimes, the receiver will give the option to use the extra channels as Left High and Right High. If you get a 9-channel or 11-channel receiver, the options will be there for the standard 7 channels plus high channels.

I think room correction definitely helps. It makes adjusting for speaker distance and gain differences easy. The objects in your room act like a comb filter for sound, and the setting just compensates for the room's effects. I love Audyssey XT32. I have no experience with the Atmos or ceiling channels. There are plenty of people who preach against room correction software. You can get by without it if you don't mind manual settings. I think the purists discount the fact that your room already acts like an equalizer and filters the sound coming from your speakers. There's nothing wrong with trying to compensate for this comb filtering effect.

I have an Onkyo PRSC5509 that I'm extremely pleased with. It's been rock solid but it doesn't have HDCP2.2 or the new Atmos but it is so connectivity-friendly that I use it to run my entire media library from my computer through HDMI. I play multi-channel audio SACD ISO images (on hard drive) through foobar through my Preamp. I think the only other preamp I would be willing to run my library on would be the Marantz competitor. My current preamp does have AudysseyXT32 whereas the newer Onkyo preamp with Atmos does NOT. Cost cutting from Onkyo. I'm not in a hurry to adopt the new Atmos receivers because at this point, I have absolutely no interest in buying Atmos-ready speakers or installing ceiling speakers. If you don't want the latest, you can find some great used preamps or AVRs at a great price. Even the awesome Marantz AV8801 is now being steeply discounted to make way for the AV8802. If you wait a little longer, you might see everyone clearing out their non-Atmos receiver models at big discounts.

If or when 4K video and HDCP2.2 gets well established, I will have to upgrade. But for the next several years, I think I'll be okay.

I DIY-built all my amplifiers. I have 5 Anaview AMS1000-2600 monoblocs (600W at 8ohms, 1000W at 4ohms per channel), three stereo pair ICEpower 125ASX2 amplifiers with ICExtend modules (each channel 250W and 8ohm, 450W at 4-ohms) and a single monoblock 125ASX2 for a total of 12 channels of potential amplification. I think the cost per channel for the Anaviews was around 500 (cost of the amplifier module and nice cases, LED, connectors) each, and the cost per channel for the ICE was about 300 or so... but prices have gone up a lot since then. I also spent a lot of downtime crimping and soldering cables. And there is no way I can drive those amps to their potential without damaging my speakers or melting the 15-amp rated 14-gauge electrical wiring in my home.

[jjanosik]

Wow, you built all your amplifiers? Big respect

Thank you very much for all the information and recommendations... I will have to reconsider about room correction and ceiling solutions. Right now I think I can live without both, but I don't know how hard is it to set it manually.

Unfortunately Outlaw and Emotiva are not sold directly in my country therefore I have to pay quite a lot of money for the shipping and warranty is almost non-existent because of that (shipping of 1 emotiva amp is around 550$). And I don't know if I want to risk this.

So I think the best solution for me is to buy some powerful receiver which has direct analog input, so I can use it for the amplification in the future. Right now the Cambridge Audio CXR200 looks like the best option for this... 7.1 direct analog inputs, 170w 8ohm 2-channel driven, 120w 8ohm 7-channels, hdcp 2.2 and their previous model was praised for sound quality... It probably doesn't have room correction and Atmos so there is the trade-off.

[FirstReflect]

Your plan makes sense for your situation, but why not opt for the Marantz SR7009 or Yamaha A3040? You'd be getting all the features you mentioned wanting, plus the ability to do Dolby Atmos (and Auro-3D, also, in the case of the SR7009), as well as excellent room correction/auto-setup in either case.

The only thing you would not be getting with either the Marantz SR7009 or the Yamaha RX-A3040 would be HDCP 2.2. But, as you mentioned, hopefully most 4K players (of all types) will include two HDMI outputs so that you can route the HDCP 2.2 protected video directly to your HDCP 2.2 4K display, then use the second HDMI output to route audio only directly to your AV Receiver.

Lots and lots of people get sucked into this idea that the bigger manufacturers like Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc. somehow have inferior sound to the slightly smaller companies. A lot of that has to do with price ( "how could they charge more if they weren't actually better?" ), and just the misconception that by going "a little bit off the beaten path" that you must be getting some sort of "secret" that "regular" folks don't know about.

I'm here to tell you, Marantz and Yamaha know what the heck they're doing, and their products sound fantastic. Why give up features just because the smaller brands cannot include them at a competitive price? That doesn't make them "better" or "special". It just means they have a profit margin to maintain just like anybody else, but due to economies of scale, they can't compete on features.

And just so you're aware on that HDCP 2.2 front - there is not a single AV Receiver out there right now that has full 18 Gbps bandwidth HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2. I know that Onkyo/Integra and a handful of other brands say they have HDCP 2.2 on some of their models. And they do. It's just that it's HDCP 2.2 on a restricted 10.2 Gbps bandwidth HDMI 2.0 connection. The lower bandwidth means it might not be able to pass along the full capabilities of UltraHD content (10 bit colour, HDR, wider colour gamut, higher frame rates - all at once). Bottom line, do not let any claims of HDCP 2.2 support sway you. NO ONE has a full bandwidth HDCP 2.2 solution on the market just yet. EVERYONE will have full bandwidth HDCP 2.2 solutions by the end of 2015, though.

Anyways, get the Marantz SR7009 or Yamaha RX-A3040 if you want to buy something right now

[bkdc]

I agree with FirstReflect. The AV processors from smaller makers like NAD and Cambridge Audio are not going to sound any better than ones from Marantz, Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, or Yamaha. I wish some of the manufacturers would make a dedicated AV Preamp but most makers make AVReceiver with amplifier without a dedicated AV preamp.