Slim Horizon as a near-field monitor

[bkdc]

Is there any experience with the custom Sierra Horizon or the Horizon 'slim' as a near-field monitor? I'd like to listen to music at as low a volume as I can while still hearing the micro details in the music, so I was thinking about whether the Horizon with the RAAL would present an improvement over my Sierra-2's running computer near-monitor duty. I sit around four feet from the speakers.

The 'slim' is the custom cabinet here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...0484#post40484

[davef]

Is there any experience with the custom Sierra Horizon or the Horizon 'slim' as a near-field monitor? I'd like to listen to music at as low a volume as I can while still hearing the micro details in the music, so I was thinking about whether the Horizon with the RAAL would present an improvement over my Sierra-2's running computer near-monitor duty. I sit around four feet from the speakers.

The 'slim' is the custom cabinet here:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...0484#post40484

IMO, at 4 foot distance there would be a slight advantage due to the dedicated midrange driver. Best to ask one of our very own as he owns both. He should be able to provide a more detailed response as I do not have any of the custom horizons on hand at this time:

Here is Rob's details: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/mem...8-FirstReflect

[FirstReflect]

Whoa. Thank you for the vote of confidence! I'll try my best to help out on this one.

So I currently sit quite close to my custom Front speakers, which are the Sierra Horizon RAAL "Slim" in a vertically oriented cabinet:

Vertical Sierra Horizons.jpg

But I'm not quite as close as 4 feet. A 4 foot distance should still be sufficient for all the drivers to "sum" together in their sound, though. So that is not an issue.

So the real question is whether they will be an audible upgrade vs. the Sierra-2. My answer to that would be "yes", but it is VERY subtle. This is, in my opinion, about the furthest thing from the cliché "night and day" difference. And, in fact, put to a truly blind test, my confidence in telling them apart would be a bit low. The blind comparison would certainly need to be the type where I am instantaneously switching back and forth between the "Slim" Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2. If this were "walk into a room, hear only one of the speakers, then leave the room and come back in, listen again, and identify whether it's the same speaker as the first time or a different speaker", I'd have zero confidence that I could identify the Sierra-2 vs. the Horizon RAAL. I should mention that is only if both speakers are being bass managed, though. Otherwise, it's pretty easy to tell the two of them apart in the deeper bass.

In a direct, instantaneously switching A-B comparison, though, what I've observed is that the Horizon RAAL is slightly more resolving. The timbre match between the Sierra-2 and Horizon RAAL is remarkable. They really do sound like the same speaker in that regard.

I've mentioned it before, but my anecdotal description is to say that if you listen to the Sierra-2, it might sound as though the person is, say, 10 feet away from you. Then you listen to the Horizon RAAL, and it sounds as though the person moved a few feet closer, but didn't get any louder. That is what I mean by "more resolving". When you mention wanting to hear micro details, that's exactly what I'm talking about. But man-oh-man is it subtle.

Since you are someone who is interested in micro details, I would venture to say that you are the sort of person who might appreciate this slightly more resolving sound. Like I say, in a direct, instantaneously switching A-B comparison, I do think the Horizon RAAL speakers hold an edge over the Sierra-2. I do think that I would be able to identify them in a blind comparison this way. But, like I say, my confidence would not be particularly high. To me, this is not at all like comparing any of the RAAL ribbon models to, say, the Sierra-1 NrT. In that comparison, there's a fairly obvious difference in timbre that I would be very confident I would identify in a blind comparison. But the Sierra-2 and Horizon RAAL are like "shades" of one another.

So I like to say that with the Sierra-2, I can hear the singer's lips part and whether or not their mouth was dry; with the Horizon RAAL, I can practically hear them blink! haha. Honestly, though, they are really, really close. If you were to, say, sell you Sierra-2 now and then bring in the Horizon RAAL after a few days, I'm not altogether sure you'd listen to the Horizon RAAL and think you're hearing anything different at all. They are MUCH more similar than different (expect for the deeper bass). But if you do a direct A-B comparison, I think you'll spot the same, slight difference that I have noted - with the Horizon RAAL being slightly more resolving. And if that sort of subtle difference is worth it to you, then the Horizon RAAL won't disappoint.

I hope that's of some help.

- Rob H.

[bkdc]

Thanks for your very helpful response, Rob.

What did you think of your custom Sierra-1's with 70-20XR tweeters?

I'm wondering what a custom Sierra-2 would sound like with upgraded 70-20XR tweeters and a lower crossover frequency. Just based on the measurements/graphs, it looks like the 70-20XR's perform slightly better than the 70-10, but the bonus is the lower crossover frequency. I wonder whether the difference due to lower crossover frequency would be audible.

[FirstReflect]

My one-off Sierra bookshelf speakers with the RAAL 70-20XR + dedicated Tower mid-range drivers in them are the very reason I ended up upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2.

I bought the one-off 70-20XR + dedicated Tower mid-range bookshelf speakers for use as Front Wide speakers. I wanted a PERFECT timbre match across the front soundstage, and the one-off bookshelf Front Wide speakers accomplished that. Of course, they have no deep bass what-so-ever. I currently cross them over to my subwoofers at 120Hz, but my playback levels are relatively low due to the very small size of my room. If I were demanding louder output from them, I'd likely want to cross them over at a higher frequency so as not to tax that dedicated mid-range driver.

In any case, I tried putting the one-off bookshelf speakers in the Surround positions, and that's what convinced me to upgrade my Sierra-1 NrT speakers. Having that perfect timbre match to the Front 3 produced something special...and I wanted it

So, yes, I have directly compared the Sierra-2 to the one-off RAAL 70-20XR + dedicated Tower mid-range bookshelf Front Wides. And other than the very obvious difference in the bass, it's the same situation as comparing the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL speakers. The one-off Front Wides remain that little bit more resolving. Switching quickly back and forth to A-B compare them with the Sierra-2, and matching them up with the Horizon RAAL, it's a very subtle difference that goes from "identical" to "very nearly identical, but not quite."

I have never had the chance to hear a custom bookshelf using the RAAL 70-20XR with the Sierra-2 woofer. Believe me, I have strongly considered it. Since I would like to have a full Immersive Audio setup (Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X), I'm considering buying one more pair of speakers and moving one pair of Sierra-2 speakers into Rear Height or Surround Height position. So the speakers I would add would be a new pair of Surround speakers. And rather than Sierra-2, I'm considering some sort of custom RAAL 70-20XR option, or just using a pair of normal Horizon RAAL speakers!

So really, there's your answer, I think. As much as I'm super impressed by the Sierra-2, in my "ideal" world, I'd still end up using speakers with the RAAL 70-20XR in the Surround positions.

I want to make something clear, in the Surround Back, Front Height, and any other Height or Overhead positions, the Sierra-2 are completely indiscernible from the one-off speakers. The limitations there are my hearing and the positioning within the room, I have ZERO desire for anything other than the Sierra-2 in those positions. I've A-B compared them, and in those positions, I really, really, really cannot hear any difference. The Sierra-2 are perfect in those positions.

For the Front 3, the Front Wides, and the Surrounds, my ideal would be 7 identical speakers. So there's how I really feel about the Sierra-2 vs. the Horizon RAAL. It's a tiny difference, but a difference none-the-less that I would opt to eliminate in an ideal circumstance.

So all I can do is speculate, but I strongly suspect that a 70-20XR tweeter matched with the Sierra-2 woofer and a custom crossover would result in a speaker that is almost indistinguishable from the Horizon RAAL. It wouldn't have the same output or deep bass extension capabilities, but aside from those things, the 70-20XR would end up covering a good portion of the upper mid-range. So the differences in the mid-range between the Sierra-2 woofer and the dedicated mid-range driver...I honestly don't know how discernible those would be.

The question, though, is whether it's even worth the price. If you could use the standard Horizon RAAL speakers at $2700 a pair, I'm not altogether sure that a pair of custom Sierra-2 with the 70-20XR tweeter and a custom crossover would even be all that much cheaper. Maybe a couple hundred bucks.

Of course, if physical size is the issue, then custom Horizon RAAL speakers - like the vertical "slim" ones that I ordered - are more expensive than the standard Horizon RAAL. So that's where custom Sierra-2 with the 70-20XR tweeter might make sense.

Bottom line is this - if I'm going "all out", I'm getting 70-20XR tweeters with the dedicated Tower mid-range driver. That's what I did for my one-off Front Wide speakers, and I've never regretted doing so for one second. The timbre match in the mid-range and treble is truly flawless.

The Sierra-2, as truly remarkable as they are, do not sound identical . Really, really close. Closer than I would even expect. Close enough to make me question my confidence in a blind test. But not quite identical . Would swapping out the 70-10 ribbon for the 70-20XR and a custom crossover bring them even closer? I strongly suspect that it would. The 70-20XR is responsible for a lot of the "magic" of the Horizon RAAL speakers.

But I simply cannot tell you for certain how much of a difference that dedicated Tower mid-range driver makes over the Sierra-2 woofer. That Sierra-2 woofer was painstakingly designed to be able to play both higher and lower than the dedicated Tower mid-range driver. But does that give the dedicated Tower mid-range driver a slight edge in the 200Hz - 2000Hz mid-range? Likely so. There's a good reason why Dave has not replaced the dedicated Tower mid-range driver with a CURV driver in the Tower and Horizon. That dedicated Tower mid-range was purpose built to handle just the frequencies between the bass drivers and the 70-20XR tweeter. And my one-off Front Wides prove that the dedicated mid-range driver and the 70-20XR are a match made in heaven

I know that Dave has made custom Sierra-2 speakers using the Sierra-2 woofer and the 70-20XR tweeter for other customers though. So hopefully, some of those folks, or Dave himself, might weight in on that exact scenario.

- Rob H.

[MWS]

I just ordered a pair of the Sierra-2, and am anxiously awaiting their arrival. I would really like the Horizon center, but it is too tall for where I want to put it. My question is, is the custom Horizon slim still available? And if so, where can I find some info regarding it? Thank you, and please excuse my newbie ignorance.

[N Boros]

So the real question is whether they will be an audible upgrade vs. the Sierra-2. My answer to that would be "yes", but it is VERY subtle. This is, in my opinion, about the furthest thing from the cliché "night and day" difference. And, in fact, put to a truly blind test, my confidence in telling them apart would be a bit low.

...

In a direct, instantaneously switching A-B comparison, though, what I've observed is that the Horizon RAAL is slightly more resolving. The timbre match between the Sierra-2 and Horizon RAAL is remarkable. They really do sound like the same speaker in that regard.

...

Switching quickly back and forth to A-B compare them with the Sierra-2, and matching them up with the Horizon RAAL, it's a very subtle difference that goes from "identical" to "very nearly identical, but not quite."

I'm glad to hear these comments. I just purchased some Sierra 2s for my main speakers this past summer and I am currently using some cheap Aperion speakers as my surrounds until I decide which Ascend speakers will best fill out the center and surround speakers. My setup is mainly for home theater and the sweet spot in the only row of seating is only about 9 feet from the main speakers. If I were to move the Sierra 2s to surround duty because I wanted to get some towers and horizon center with Raal tweeters it wouldn't be because I need the extra output, as the Sierra 2s at my seating position can easily hit reference levels, that I don't listen at anyways. It also wouldn't be to get some extra bass extension, since I am using a subwoofer in my setup. My only reason to possibly want to go with 3 way speakers up front would be to get a larger (wider and taller) soundstage up front and to get more resolving speakers in those positions, if that were possible. It sounds like both are possible, but the differences are not as large as I would expect. This makes me very happy, since I can likely save quite a bit of money and not give up much in performance.

I was thinking if I didn't go with the towers and a horizon up front, then I would just get three more Sierra 2s, so that I would have a perfect match in the fronts, center and surrounds. I think Rob's comments helped convince me that I don't need the towers up front, but I may spend the extra money to get a Horizon with Raal for my center channel. The thought with this is so that I can be assured dialog clarity as much as possible. Now, the Sierra 2s don't have a problem with dialog clarity, as is evidenced when Bane in talking in the Dark Night Rises. In the theater I had no idea what he was saying half the time. On the Sierra 2s, every word is quite clear. But, every now and then one runs into a soundtrack with not so clear dialog, because it was either poorly mastered, or poorly recorded when the movie was shot. If the Horizon with the Raal tweeter can pull a slight bit more clairty out of these soundtracks, then I think the extra $700 might be worth it for me.

As far as the surrounds, I might just go with the CBM 170s. I'll probably try then out for a few months and see how I like the match. If it feels like something is lacking I can just move them to surround back position or use them in another room and get Sierra 2s for the surrounds. I really don't need surround backs since I only have one row of seating, so a good wide dispersion surround speaker should be enough to envelop me in the soundtrack.

[davef]

I just ordered a pair of the Sierra-2, and am anxiously awaiting their arrival. I would really like the Horizon center, but it is too tall for where I want to put it. My question is, is the custom Horizon slim still available? And if so, where can I find some info regarding it? Thank you, and please excuse my newbie ignorance.

Thanks for getting your order in! Yes, custom Horizons are available. Best to contact me directly so we can discuss the various options.

Thanks in advance!

[Blingleberry]

What custom options are available for a Horizon center? It's a little big for my Salamander cabinet.
Thx!!