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Thread: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Rob.....you are quite a fella. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you are not writing of some kind, whether its in the newspaper, magazines or whatever, you have missed your calling. Impressive man, impressive. Maybe you already do, I'm just a rookie over here.
    Tomorrows the day. I have a day off and Sue is working and brother John is going to take care of Mom.
    I'm going to order the Amp tonight. And I can't resist, the ATI AT 2000 is coming to my house. I realize it will not be a night and day difference . I like the future expandability, and the added headroom when its a crankin..My last good amp was a Hafler 500 @ 255 and I think 472 comes to mind on 4 ohm. I always liked that amp.

    I gotta tell you why, or at least explain myself....It is an interesting tale at the least. While working at some of the "factory's" over the decades gone by, I saw some things that turned me against Private Labels such as Outlaw. I'll always go with the name brand, if at all possible...
    A while back, I spent about 10 years working for United Technologies. Worked as a Maintenance Technician . Place employed about 1500, in which 1300 was women... ( I could tell you some very eyebrow raising stories about that place, but I"d probably get thrown off the forum). Anyway, they had 15 departments, a press room, die cast department, cold header department ...you know the typical electro-mechanical plant, covering about a half a mile. I say electo because that is what we made, electro-mechanical switches. Headlight, Dimmer, Brake, Wiper Switches, that kind of stuff. We made them for Ford ,and also made them for NAPA and other private label stores ie Car Quest etc..These were IDENTICAL switches, at least they were suppose to be... Whenever we had parts... like copper washers or plungers and such that went in a switch that was not quite up to par...It went over and went in the aftermarket line. They might wait for a couple months to get the opportunity to use them. As they might not be running that particular switch right at that moment. But they were used in something other than the name brand. They weren't bad parts,not bad enough to toss out.Might be just right on the line for being 'in spec". Finish might be off, might be egg shaped a little...whatever.. But they made sure their bread and butter FORD,.. got only the best parts. The aftermarket switches went through the "test sets" at the end of the lines OK, but the Ford parts had all the best of the best. Kind of hand selected. Did the NAPAs know this was going on.? I'm sure they did not, and U.T would have denied it for sure... But it happened, quite frequently. I'm absolutely sure I'm thinkin too deep into this..But I've never forgot it, and when someone tells me their all alike...I know better. At least in my experiences


    Here goes.......... I got a small start today
    Rob, the sound wave pattern you gave me has some "clicks" on it...like static every few seconds.That supposed to be in there?
    Last edited by Wanger 714; 02-14-2015 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    So much for my fear of Private Label items...
    1) I have a couple questions. Would one of you point me in the direction cables. Nothing ridiculous, just some quality .I would like to hear your opinions
    2) also, with the 1200 dollars I was planning on spending that I didn't (thanks F.Direct ) I am thinking about setting this up with a 2 channel bypass to listen to a couple hundred albums I have here at house. I was looking @ a Parasound 2100 only because I found a thread a couple years old on here and somebody was using one. That got me looking at a Parasound Halo P5...Comments? I could go to AVS and ask, but there are so many clowns on there. I trust you guys!LOL. I'm just wondering..
    3) Are there any downsides?
    4) And how just exactly do they work? Do they go before the Denon and Outlaw.., or after it.?
    5) And could I plug my Oppo 103 into it, and Denon both? So I can play CD'S/Albums through the 2 channel and Blu-Rays through the Denon .I just cant get this in my head straight how they play both. I'm hoping I should not have ordered a 7 channel.
    y Product Total
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    1 OAW3 Sys .................................... $ 149.00
    OAW3 Wireless Audio System

    1 7500 Power Amplifier ........................ $ 1,599.00
    7500 5-Channel Balanced Amplifier

    Total items: ( 2 )
    Sub Total ................... $ 1,748.00
    00.00 ........................ - $
    Sub Total ................... $ 1,748.00
    Tax ............................. $ 00.00
    Shipping ........................ $ 93.16
    Final Total .................. $ 1,841.16



    -- Outlaw Audio, LLC
    -- www.outlawaudio.com

    -- PO Box 975
    -- Easton, MA 02334

    -- 866-OUTLAWS
    Last edited by Wanger 714; 02-14-2015 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Hello!

    If you want a preamp, you could consider the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1, now in its second generation. Both are well reviewd and both have bass management. A benefit of the Emotiva is that the home theater bypass also includes an input for subwoofer, where the p5 does not. This makes it more difficult to integrate you subwoofer with your pure audio setup AND your home theater. The Emotiva lets you have your 2ch setup with crossover to you subwoofer(s) and when in HT bypass, it just passes along whatever comes from the subwoofer signal and you only connect your subwoofer to one device.

    Speaking of connecting, which ever preamp you choose would go in between you AVR pre-outs and your power amplifier. So the preouts for front Left/Right will go to the preamp and the output from the preamp goes into the power amps for your Left/Right speakers. In case of the Emotiva amps you do the same for the subwoofers. On both preamps, you also have enough inputs to include the analog outptus of the bdp103.

    A note on the subs. I believe you have two subs? If so, you still want to use the summed subwoofer output. So what bass frequencies below the crossover point are split between your two subs and both play the same signal. Both subs playing the same signal is what makes them work together to even out the bass in your room. Otherwise they will both work more against each other than together. Besides, anything below 80hz we can't locate anyways, so it's not like a low 35hz signal on the left signal will be heard coming from the left sub.

    Another note/drawback. Part of setting up a subwoofer properly to integrate with your main speakers is to have them time aligned with your mains speakers. This is very difficult to do. You'll always need somekind of DSP to setup proper delays so notes are all time-aligned and arrive at your position at the same time. There are devices out there like the miniDSP 2in x 4out boxes that would let you do just this. There is some setup involved, but it is just for the subs. Your main speakers would still be playing whatever they receive from the preamp.



    I hope this helps.

    Final note: most of what I mentioned here (specifically the subwoofer part), I learned from First Reflect himself (Rob H) and Tom Andry on the AV Rant podcast. Just search for AV Rant on YouTube and you'll find them quickly. The podcast is dedicated to answering questions for listeners about AV. And I recommend you or anyone ro check it out.

    Ok I'm running too long now, bye!
    Last edited by eliwankenobi; 02-14-2015 at 07:12 PM.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    The bass sweep that I sent is supposed to have those "clicks", yes.

    There is a click at the very, very beginning. Then there is a click at 100Hz, 90Hz, 80Hz, etc., every 10Hz. That allows you to count the clicks to get a rough idea of what frequency you are hearing. The sweep starts at 120Hz and goes down to 30Hz.

    As for cables and wires, my highest recommendation is for BlueJeansCable.com . Honestly, what they sell is overkill, but it is literally the same broadcast-quality cable stock that is used to make the content. Want to run cables around the entire perimeter of a stadium for a football game broadcast? Blue Jeans will sell you the same stuff to use in your home. So I like them for that They also sell very inexpensive Chinese-sourced cables over at TartanCable.com . Same company. The BlueJeans brand is for American made cable stock, Tartan is for Chinese-sourced cables. Either way, great company and perfect cable performance for very reasonable prices.

    As for having a separate 2-channel-only pre-amp and running a "home theater bypass" setup, my opinion might not be popular, but I find it entirely unnecessary. Why go to all the trouble of positioning your subwoofers, bass managing them with your AV Receiver, running a great auto-EQ program like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT, only to bypass all of that effort and linear sound quality just because your source is 2-channels instead of surround sound? The entire notion harkens back to when "surround sound" meant Dolby Pro Logic and there was a marked difference in the quality of consumer AV Receivers and higher end hi-fi gear. These days, it doesn't make any sense at all.

    The DACs in the 4520 are every bit as good as any 2-channel-only gear. The amplification is linear and distortion free. We didn't have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 back in the days when Dolby Pro Logic was the only way to get surround sound at home. There have just been so many advancements and the sound quality has improved so much, but many people still hold onto the notion that 2-channel is somehow different than surround sound to this day.

    Just put your 4520 in Stereo listening mode, take advantage of still being able to use your pair of bass managed, auto-EQ'd subwoofers, and save your money!

    I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but just think about it for a minute. Why would it somehow be better to listen to your 2-channel recordings with no subwoofers, no bass management, and no auto-EQ? There's this weird notion that 2-channel must somehow be more "pure" than surround sound. That's just patently ridiculous. Linear accurate sound is linear accurate sound whether the source is mono, stereo, or surround sound. Do you really think there are never any instances when a 5.1 recording is only playing out of the Front Left & Right speakers?

    So I would urge you to not fall into that trap of thinking. Subwoofers are not "only for movies" as some people seem to espouse. The LFE channel in a 5.1 or 7.1 recording is NOT a "subwoofer" channel. It is a low frequency effects channel. It could be played back by any capable speaker. The primary reason the LFE channel is separate is because it is allowed to play up to 10dB louder than any other channel. So if a sound mixer wants to hit the audience with a 115dB blast of deep bass, the LFE channel allows for that. Any other channel maxes out at 105dB.

    Subwoofers just take your 2-way bookshelf speakers and turn them into 3-way full range speakers. Or they take your 3-way Towers and turn them into full range 4-way speakers. There is ZERO reason to run only your Front L/R speakers as full range, and plenty of reasons not to.

    Similarly, there is zero reason to bypass the auto-EQ that creates linear, accurate sound at your seats. You are not "corrupting" the sound just because it's 2-channel. The EQ is there to correct for the distortions that are created by your room! Those distortions don't suddenly become desirable just because you're listening to a record or a CD. Honestly, that way of thinking just baffles me.

    Not to mention, Audyssey Dynamic EQ allows you to hear a properly balanced mix of bass, midrange and treble even when you do not have the master volume dial at 0 (zero) dB on the relative scale. You can have the volume at a lower, more comfortable level and still hear the deep bass that would otherwise quickly fall out of the range of human hearing.

    On that Dynamic EQ tip, Audyssey's settings in the menu allow for a "Reference Level Offset". Music is not necessarily mixed at the same average and peak loudness levels as movies. They are not as strictly standardized. As a result, Audyssey Dynamic EQ will often make the bass too loud when activated and listening to music below full Reference Volume (0 dB on the volume dial). But you can adjust that so that the bass is offset by -5, -10, or -15dB. So if having Dynamic EQ turned on is obviously making the bass far too loud and overpowering the other frequencies, you can adjust for that.

    Overall, I just don't see the need, and I do not recommend using a home theater bypass. When you have a very good AV Receiver like the Denon 4520, it can play 2-channel in Stereo listening mode just as well - in fact better - than any dedicated 2-channel-only pre-amp or integrated amp. And use the Stereo listening mode, not Direct or Pure Direct. There's zero reason to go messing with your bass management and auto-EQ. Those modes exist to placate the folks who believe in all this "2-channel is different from surround sound" nonsense.

    Wanger, you have a great AV Receiver, you have great speakers. You already ordered a great amp (which you don't really need, but it might deliver a quieter noise floor and more dynamic headroom, so it's never a "bad" investment ). But if you have more money to spend, spend it where it will do you the most good. That would either be a pair of more capable subwoofers than the ones you already have, or on acoustic room treatments. You should spend your money in places where it will actually create a useful, audible difference, not on antiquated notions that some folks are still holding onto for no good reason. Like the separate amp, it might intuitively seem like a nice thing to have. And at the end of the day, it is your money and your happiness, so it's not like I can stop you if it's what you really want. And you WILL hear the sound change if you play your 2-channel recordings through a separate setup with no auto-EQ and possibly no subwoofers. It'll sound different for sure. It's just that it won't be as accurate and linear as what the 4520 could give you all by itself just by putting it in Stereo listening mode and keeping Audyssey and bass management engaged! So I don't get it, and I can't possibly recommend it as a good use of your money.

    - Rob H.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Rob, eliwankenobi,

    Thanks guys . One thing I can count on, is no sugar coating from you, Rob. Actually,I'm used to it, as my engine builder has the same "brutally honest" personality as you. He could sell many more engines if he just rolled with it, so to speak, but he won't, and same with you.
    Alright ,here is the next item. I ordered the Dome tweeters instead of the RAAL. The reason is, Dina was making me very aware (that brutally honest stuff) that they are a very unforgiving speaker. Very, Very accurate. Bad recording, I might not like them. She said this after I told her my source material was going to be 70 and 80's rock and roll primarily...Movies I' will watch ,but not my primary concern .I'm starting to second guess my decision on that choice . Quite frankly, if something is recorded crappy, I play it once and it ends up collecting dust. And I have grown out of the head banger stuff. I primarily play old Genesis , Stealy Dan, Supertramp, Linda Ronstadt , Alan Parsons, that kind of music.On the heaver side ,maybe Robin Trower or Jeff Beck or Joe Satriani,. In the middle Kansas or Pink Floyd. But I also like a little progressive Jazz like Spiro Gyro or Ernie Watts. Even some country, (but I like the females, not the twangy guy county hick stuff.) So ,...am I screwing up not ordering the Raal's. I have plenty of time to change the order. Wanger

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    The choice between the NrT tweeter and the RAAL ribbon tweeter is an interesting one. There is no question that they sound different.

    The RAAL is more resolving. Whether you'd prefer that or not is very tough to say. To put it in objective terms, the RAAL has faster transient response and less residual energy. As a result, I would say that the RAAL takes a bit more "getting used to" for new listeners. Familiar recordings simply do not sound the same as you would remember hearing them in the past because you've almost certainly never heard them played this cleanly before. Some people love that because it can reveal nuance and realism that was previously "masked". But it can simultaneously be a bit jarring because it will also reveal flaws in the recordings or give them a different timbre than what you remember or expect.

    I suppose the simplified way of saying it is that bad recordings sound worse, and good recordings sound closer to real. The standard Towers with the NrT tweeters sound like really, really good speakers.

    So that likely isn't a whole lot of help, but I hope it sort of describes the difference - as I have experienced it, anyway. If you're looking for "familiar but really, really good", then stick with the standard Towers. If you're looking for "different, things laid bare", then go for the RAAL.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Hi Efrain,
    As you know I have the P5 and came from the 2100. Both excellent sounding preamps . I guess I'm not sure how the emotiva works but the p5 integrates the sub with its own crossover as well. I have my dual rythmiks integrated with it and my yamaha pre rather easily.

    Rob,
    I must respectfully disagree that a 2ch pre has no advantage over a surround reciever. I have personally A/B'd both in my system by switching imputs on the fly and the results are easily discernible. The preamp had much better imaging, more detail, and increased separation. I did this for an audio buddy of mine a while back and he was pretty surprised as well...in fact he later bought the same preamp.

    The latest surround recievers do sound good, don't get me wrong, but a dedicated pre has but one job in which it excels at. It's possible this might not be the case for everyone's system. Some are more revealing than others. Who knows, maybe my yamaha rx v2600 at the time, while being a top line reciever, might not have done great at 2ch.

    Brandon

    Quote Originally Posted by eliwankenobi View Post
    Hello!

    If you want a preamp, you could consider the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1, now in its second generation. Both are well reviewd and both have bass management. A benefit of the Emotiva is that the home theater bypass also includes an input for subwoofer, where the p5 does not. This makes it more difficult to integrate you subwoofer with your pure audio setup AND your home theater. The Emotiva lets you have your 2ch setup with crossover to you subwoofer(s) and when in HT bypass, it just passes along whatever comes from the subwoofer signal and you only connect your subwoofer to one device.

    Speaking of connecting, which ever preamp you choose would go in between you AVR pre-outs and your power amplifier. So the preouts for front Left/Right will go to the preamp and the output from the preamp goes into the power amps for your Left/Right speakers. In case of the Emotiva amps you do the same for the subwoofers. On both preamps, you also have enough inputs to include the analog outptus of the bdp103.

    A note on the subs. I believe you have two subs? If so, you still want to use the summed subwoofer output. So what bass frequencies below the crossover point are split between your two subs and both play the same signal. Both subs playing the same signal is what makes them work together to even out the bass in your room. Otherwise they will both work more against each other than together. Besides, anything below 80hz we can't locate anyways, so it's not like a low 35hz signal on the left signal will be heard coming from the left sub.

    Another note/drawback. Part of setting up a subwoofer properly to integrate with your main speakers is to have them time aligned with your mains speakers. This is very difficult to do. You'll always need somekind of DSP to setup proper delays so notes are all time-aligned and arrive at your position at the same time. There are devices out there like the miniDSP 2in x 4out boxes that would let you do just this. There is some setup involved, but it is just for the subs. Your main speakers would still be playing whatever they receive from the preamp.



    I hope this helps.

    Final note: most of what I mentioned here (specifically the subwoofer part), I learned from First Reflect himself (Rob H) and Tom Andry on the AV Rant podcast. Just search for AV Rant on YouTube and you'll find them quickly. The podcast is dedicated to answering questions for listeners about AV. And I recommend you or anyone ro check it out.

    Ok I'm running too long now, bye!

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Marrymaid,
    Thanks for the second opinion. I'm still out to lunch on this one. If I buy one and don't use it, it will just be another dust collector. But, I'll never know till I give it a go. I'm sticking with the dome on First Reflects opinion/description. Do you know if Parasound is made in the States?

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Wanger 714,

    I just put together a combination home theater and 2.1 channel stereo system. I auditioned the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XPS-1 preamps. I believe both preamps are designed in America and built in China. I went with the Emotiva as I thought it flat out sounded better with my 2 channel set up. The preamp allows me to take the front two channels of my 5.1 system and run them through a pair of Emotiva XPA-1L monoblock amps. All it does is pass the signal directly through to the amps from the front channel Left and Right and the the subwoofer from my Marantz NR1604 AVR. The Marantz powers the center and rear channels. So why did I do it like this? In my case I liked how my 2 channel system sounds and i wanted to add a subwoofer to it. My wife wanted a 5.1 surround system for movies. This way we are both happy. I divide inputs up between the systems. If it has a video component the signal goes through the Marantz. If it's a stereo input it goes through the Emotiva.

    I've not tried to run stereo through the Marantz to make use of the Audyssey room correction. I've tried it in the past (10 years ago) and didn't like the stereo reproduction of the Sony AVR I had at the time. Would the Marantz sound better? Maybe, but my Emotiva set up might be the best stereo I've listened to in the past 40 years. I'm hoping the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters I've ordered will make it even better.

    Good luck with your system.

    Mark

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

    Quote Originally Posted by CincyMat View Post
    Wanger 714,

    I just put together a combination home theater and 2.1 channel stereo system. I auditioned the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XPS-1 preamps. I believe both preamps are designed in America and built in China. I went with the Emotiva as I thought it flat out sounded better with my 2 channel set up. The preamp allows me to take the front two channels of my 5.1 system and run them through a pair of Emotiva XPA-1L monoblock amps. All it does is pass the signal directly through to the amps from the front channel Left and Right and the the subwoofer from my Marantz NR1604 AVR. The Marantz powers the center and rear channels. So why did I do it like this? In my case I liked how my 2 channel system sounds and i wanted to add a subwoofer to it. My wife wanted a 5.1 surround system for movies. This way we are both happy. I divide inputs up between the systems. If it has a video component the signal goes through the Marantz. If it's a stereo input it goes through the Emotiva.

    I've not tried to run stereo through the Marantz to make use of the Audyssey room correction. I've tried it in the past (10 years ago) and didn't like the stereo reproduction of the Sony AVR I had at the time. Would the Marantz sound better? Maybe, but my Emotiva set up might be the best stereo I've listened to in the past 40 years. I'm hoping the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters I've ordered will make it even better.

    Good luck with your system.

    Mark
    And good luck with yours. Does the Emotiva have separate bass and treble controls? I'm guessing they do. I liked the tone controls being on the front panel of the Parasound. Mark, did you audition both on your home equipment, or at the store.

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