Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS

[FirstReflect]

This is being copied from a conversation that started in The Tower Discussion Thread so as to avoid that thread being hijacked

Hello to all
I am a newbie to this forum. I am seriously considering a set of Towers in the near future. Just would like to ask a few questions from you experts. I'm reaching retirement age, but one of the things that still work right on me is my ears...They work well enough to tell me I have taken steps backwards with our system....And I aim to remedy the screw-up..
A little history...Back a decade ago, right before they went dark,I purchased a Miller Kreisel system (5 B-1600 Book shelf's and 2 MX-70B SF Subs)and a Marantz amp( 7500 ). Had an old Panasonic CD player. I don't even remember the model... I was very pleased. It was a nice system for movies, but more importantly to me,it rocked. Watching video concerts was a pleasure. You could "feel it" . We used to invite a few couples over, sit around the system, have a few drinks,,,well sometimes,alot of them,and listen/watch a concert. (Jeff Beck, Styx, Pink Floyd etc) I decided to upgrade and purchased a Denon 4250 and an Oppo 103. Much to my surprise, when it's turned up... All the "Punch" went away. It just sounds like a really cheap system....Very muddled and ran togather.. Its a killer system for Movies, but for audio it stinks...We never have people over to rock out anymore. It would be embarrassing. I have been on AVS for months, listening to all the audiophiles tell me what "setting" to get back to my starting point. None of them worked. I have come to the conclusion that these 4 ohm M/Ks are just not working with this amp. I don't know how that old Marantz had more thump than this new one....but it did. I do know that my digital readout on my Furman always showed the old amp using a lot more current than the Denon.I sent the Denon back and they sent me a new one(AVS)...but the outcome was the same....
Ok, enough about that, my question is, anybody on here have a Emotivia XPR-5 hooked to a Denon 4250 and run to a pair of these Towers....I would be using my M/Ks as surrounds . I might use one for a center also..not sure about it. That's what I'm thinking...Ideas? Thank you for your time....Jeff

[FirstReflect]

Welcome to the forum.

You have a lot going on there in your first post. So before I dive into anything, I have a couple of questions for you that will let us know how best to proceed with attempting to get you to a place where you are happy with the sound you are hearing:

1) How open are you to adhering to a slow, step-by-step process?

It's ok if you're someone who "just wants things to work". Not everyone has the time or the inclination to go through what is often a slow and tedious process. If you know right away that you won't have the patience for that, then we won't worry about it

2) Is the goal you have in mind to hear what you were already used to previously, or are you open to hearing accurate sound reproduction - perhaps for the first time?

Again, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. Very often, people have become accustomed to things sounding a certain way. To them, that is "right". Depending on your openness to question 1, I can tell you how to get to accurate sound reproduction, but that is often a jarring experience if it is not what you were used to.

3) Are you open to possibly thinking about how a sound reproduction system works, even if that might be different from what you've already gotten used to?

The toughest thing for many people to overcome is getting away from thinking of one component being solely responsible for some aspect of the sound. In truth, it really is a system. But that way of thinking doesn't "click" for everybody. And that's ok.

My goal here is for you to be happy with what you're hearing. But what will make you happy might not line up with what I know how to do. And the way I approach setting up an audio system might not jibe with the way you're comfortable doing it. My particular method takes patience, trial & error, and attention to detail. And at the end of it, your sound will be as accurate and transparent to the recording as possible within whatever limitations you might have. For some people, that's exactly what they want. But for other people, that sounds like a tedious nightmare! So I shall leave it to you, and respond according to how you answer my three questions above.

Unfortunately, I must warn everyone reading this that my time is very limited at the moment. So my replies might only appear in dribs and drabs. So hopefully, others will also chime in to try and help you, Jeff. But I will start by saying: IF you are open to going through a whole process (and it is perfectly ok if you aren't), then I would try to dissuade you from looking to make any purchases right away. Let us figure out what you are already working with, go through the process to get your existing equipment sounding as good as it can, and only make a purchase if it is necessary. Like I say, my method takes patience

- Rob H.

[FirstReflect]

Hi Rob,and thank you .

I am very willing to try a little experimentation. I have tried a little myself, but who knows if I was perfect in my approach. I bought a Oppo 105 and tried the DAC out, bypassing my Amp (Marantz) first. . I thought that was Flat. I don't like flat. Flat might be accurate, but to me it sounds blah..I sent it back and purchased a 103..On the other hand I'm not a big Klipsh fan...they are too much the other way...Like really bright. I want clarity, imaging, depth and thump. I would like it to sound like the band is in the room WITH me and I can feel their music "in me"..That's kind of weird to explain. I grew up running around with rock bands when I was a kid, so I guess I’m spoiled.To me, thats what I call accurate.I will buy an album and not listen to it because its not mixed well. Its dead. Thats a shame, as I think Im trying to listen to the system...instead of the music...But thats how I am. And I'm not set on the sound I 'Had". In fact, my old Hafler 500, B&O Turntable, 3DBX III Impact Restorer, with Polk 1B's Towers was my favorite system I've ever owned, but it was 2 channel. I still have the DBX and the B&O

I would very mush appreciate your guidance. And I'm set to upgrade if need. When do we begin?

...

[FirstReflect]

If I'm not mistaken...Dave had a hand in developing those B-1600's.

- Curtis

[FirstReflect]

Wanger 714,

I agree with you flat is not always the best sounding, I agree with you as well on how many recordings are done so bad!

Here is my 2 cents on what is most important in good sound.... in order of importance... Just one person's take....

#1 The recording itself
#2 Room acoustics
#3 Speakers
#4 all the rest

Also I think Dave said it before, every person ears and height are different which play into how we perceive sound.

...

[FirstReflect]

Alrighty.

So to get started, it will be easiest to know what we are working with.

The first thing we need to know about is your room. A diagram and/or pictures would be great. But if you cannot or do not want to provide those, we need to know the dimensions of your room, where the TV is located, where the seats are located, where any doors or permanent openings are located, and whether or not you are open to moving some of the speakers around if recommended.

The second thing we will do is place your two subwoofers as close to ideally as possible. The idea is to create as even and uniform a distribution of bass as possible. In a rectangular room, we accomplish this by having the two subwoofers across the room from one another - ideally at the center of two opposing walls (front wall and back wall, or the two side walls) or failing that, diagonally across the room from one another (such as in two diagonally opposite corners.

Once we have the two subwoofers located as best as possible, we will want to position the speakers for the best possible imaging. Pictures and diagrams of your room will be a big, big help here if you can provide them.

After that, I want to confirm the AV Receiver you are using. I am guessing that you actually meant the AVR-4520CI, which is a heck of a good AV Receiver.

If it is the AVR-4520CI, then it will likely be easiest to do a full factory reset so that it is as though it is a brand new unit so that we can start from scratch.

We will then make sure that in the settings, the AVR-4520CI has its impedance set to 8 ohms, not 6 ohms or 4 ohms. Even though this goes against what it says in the manual, any setting other than 8 ohms completely chokes off the available power that the AVR-4520CI can provide. You will want to monitor whether the AVR-4520CI gets extremely hot for the first little while, but it should have no difficulty powering your M&K speakers. All AV Receivers should always be set to their highest impedance setting if they offer one, never the low 4 ohm setting. It is nothing but a choke on the power.

Once that critical setting is double checked, we will play some bass sweeps through the subwoofers and ONLY the subwoofers. The other speakers won't even be plugged in at this point. The goal is to hear no gigantic dips in the bass sweeps that would indicate sound wave cancellation, and for the bass sweeps to also sound as uniform as possible from seat to seat. If there are gigantic dips at any frequencies in the sweeps at any of the seats you care about, we will have to do some trial and error to better position your two subwoofers relative to one another and the seating locations so as to eliminate those issues.

Once the bass is in good order (meaning free of gigantic dips and uniform from seat to seat - not necessarily perfectly linear, which won't happen without some EQ), we will connect your speakers to the AVR-4520CI.

We will then go through the process of running Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT, which is an excellent auto-setup and EQ program...when used carefully and properly!

We will make sure to turn on the Dynamic EQ setting within Audyssey, but make sure to turn off the Dynamic Volume setting.

We will manually adjust the speaker size setting (ALL speakers should always be set to "small", and the subwoofers should always be set to "LFE", not "LFE + Mains"). And we will adjust the crossover frequencies as necessary. Your speakers can play low enough to cross over nicely at 80Hz, so we will use the 80Hz setting for all of your speakers.

Later, you can experiment with both the "Audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat" equalizer settings.

We can then go through each of your source devices one at a time to make sure they are outputting their signals in the best way possible. We can then adjust each input on the AVR-4520CI to make sure the correct decoding program and speaker settings are being used for each and every source.

From there, we can adjust to your personal taste. We can use the manual equalizer instead of Audyssey to tailor the sound to your liking (although that won't allow for Dynamic EQ to be used, so we will have to hope you like either the "Audyssey" or "Audyssey Flat" curves as they are )

And if we really want to get into the nitty-gritty, we will play bass sweeps and test tones to figure out which speaker positions are not performing as you would like.

That will be the process

[Wanger 714]

Hi everybody... Thanks again Rob

Wow, looks like I have a little work to do...It will be enjoyable though..I will get pictures and a room layout of some sort. For another year and a half, I'm still a working guy, so my work days might not be as fruitful as I work 12 hour days. My days off are sometimes on weekends, and sometimes during the week. Until the weather breaks here in Ohio, my "off" says are free. I have no problem spending the entire weekend (or whatever) searching for answers. During the spring and summer months, my brother and myself travel the eastern US racing Drag Cars(NHRA SuperStock ) I drive and he's my crew chief . So I've got a few months before race season.... I'll be back in touch. I'm at work now but tonight I will get started on this

[Wanger 714]

Heres the pics. Room is 16 by 25 wide. Has a few little nooks and crannys, and a finished ceiling with some duckwork built in for the heat to get from the woodburner to the upstairs...You will see.I hope:[ATTACHIMG_1551 (640x427).jpgIMG_1554 (640x427).jpgIMG_1548 (640x427).jpgIMG_1544 (640x427).jpgIMG_1539 (640x427).jpg]1159[/ATTACH]IMG_1543 (640x427).jpg

[essneff]

Good looking dogs!!!!!!!!!!

[markie]

Very cozy looking! But I note an alarming lack of IKEA furniture hehe

I think it's a great idea to upgrade to the Sierra towers, but still, it's a very interesting problem that your new receiver/Oppo combination do not play well with your old speakers for music. How was your old Panasonic CD player (do you mean DVD player?) hooked up to your Marantz, and how is your current Oppo hooked up to the Denon, if I may ask?

Mark