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Thread: Rythmik F8

  1. #101
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    Oct 2008
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    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    Thank you. But i was more interested in what the 'audiophiles' do. Obviously, they want to time align their subs, they want to roll off their mains to let the subs do the heavy lifting at the low end, they might want a sharper rolloff than 24db/octave. Or are these concerns not audible?

    Please forgive the naïveté of my questions. I have never integrated a sub before and am just trying to learn.
    What audiophiles want is for their speakers to disappear. The same thing is for the subwoofer. That is really what it boils down to in the end so that we just enjoy the music and not even realize the presence of speakers/subwoofers.

    Crossover has a long history. On one extreme, we have speaker companies like Thiel and Vandesteen advocate 1st order with the largest overlap between drivers (which means drivers have to work wider bandwidth than they normally do). On the other extreme, we have the infinite slope crossover that shapes like a cliff (and therefore claim perfect transition from one driver to another). Both approaches have problem that it creates "lobes" of frequency response and the MLP is not at the peak of the lobe. If you are slightly off that MLP, then you can have large dip or variation in FR. In front speakers, that also degrade sound stage because the image is created by direct wave plus wall reflections. If the wall reflection, which is from the off-axis FR of speakers, is very different from direct wave, the sound stage naturally suffers.

    Only after Linkwitz-Riley published their paper on a family of filters with perfect phase alignment at the
    crossover point (which includes 12db/oct, 24db/oct, 36db/oct...configuration), engineers begin to realize this "phase alignment" is THE key to all crossover designs. It creates the large "lobe" in the frequency response and the improves the image as well. Ever since them, the Linkwitz-Riley (or simply L-R) becomes the only filter people talk about. In particular, the 24db/oct L-R becomes the most important. All AVRs adopt that configuration in their bass management. It is really the milestone in audio.


    As for the question that multiple subwoofer drivers can blur the image, I really don't think it is not bad as long as the drivers are close to each other. David's 340SE is what we call MTM which also has two bass drivers. I never feel the image from those speakers are not as good as any single bass driver speakers I have own or I have heard in the show. The subwoofer reproduces wavelength that is much longer than that from 340SE.

    For the amp in HX580, we have all the hooks to add HPF. But HPF has to be in RCA, not XLR. If HPF is highly desirable, we may just add that. This is where we need customer feedback.
    Last edited by RythmikAudio; 01-05-2017 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #102
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    Jan 2017
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    9

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by RythmikAudio View Post

    For the amp in HX580, we have all the hooks to add HPF. But HPF has to be in RCA, not XLR. If HPF is highly desirable, we may just add that. This is where we need customer feedback.
    Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

    The amps listed here:
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

    show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'


    And what is MTM?

    Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

    The amps listed here:
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

    show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'


    And what is MTM?

    Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html

    MTM: Midwoofer-Tweeter-Midwoofer loudspeaker configuration. The Ascend CMT-340SE is a MTM speaker.
    Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
    Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) + FV25HP | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 (x2) | Panasonic 820 | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony VW295ES | 92" Stewart ST100 |
    Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
    Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony 65Z9D |

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    101

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

    The amps listed here:
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

    show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'
    HX580 (used in F8) and HX590 (used in L22) share the same circuit board. Right now HPF is not available on either one of them. But the circuit board can add an HPF easily. If you check out the amp on L22, it has left/right line in plus an LFE in. We can convert that LFE in to an HPF out. But that means you need to have two F8, one for left and one for right.

    And what is MTM?

    Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.
    MTM is midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer, a configuration that place tweeter between two midwoofers. The configuration can be generalized to any speaker design with symmetric top half and bottom half relative to the tweeter at the middle.
    Last edited by RythmikAudio; 01-05-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  5. #105
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    Jan 2017
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    9

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

    But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    457

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

    But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?
    A lot of people use the MiniDSP 2x4 and their other products for this purpose. They have their own user forum with tons of guides and lots of positive results. It's also the cheapest way there is to incorporate room correction into a system, especially a stereo system.
    -Alex
    PS4/Nvidia Shield --> Emotiva XMC-1 --> Emotiva XPA-5 --> Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers and Horizon Center w/ RAAL tweeters (L/C/R), HTM-200 SE (Surrounds), 2x Rythmik F12 subwoofers

  7. #107
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    Jan 2017
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    9

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by sludgeogre View Post
    A lot of people use the MiniDSP 2x4 and their other products for this purpose. They have their own user forum with tons of guides and lots of positive results. It's also the cheapest way there is to incorporate room correction into a system, especially a stereo system.
    but i don't see any separate room correction in your chain sludge ogre. i guess the emotive has dirac or something tho.

    maybe i should not overthink this. just move the speakers around and start throwing blankets on the wall and run REW scans till i am happy. when i am tired enough, i'll be able to enjoy the music.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    457

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    but i don't see any separate room correction in your chain sludge ogre. i guess the emotive has dirac or something tho.

    maybe i should not overthink this. just move the speakers around and start throwing blankets on the wall and run REW scans till i am happy. when i am tired enough, i'll be able to enjoy the music.
    The Marantz AV7701 in my chain is a processor with Audyssey XT room correction. Works decently well in my room, but I would really love to upgrade to something with Dirac in it.
    -Alex
    PS4/Nvidia Shield --> Emotiva XMC-1 --> Emotiva XPA-5 --> Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers and Horizon Center w/ RAAL tweeters (L/C/R), HTM-200 SE (Surrounds), 2x Rythmik F12 subwoofers

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    Somewhere in the Boston area
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    225

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by skypickle View Post
    I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

    But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?
    I have a modest system based on a Emotiva Fusion 8100 AVR in 5.1 configuration, which I also use in 2.1 for music. In both cases I use the bass management from the AVR, crossing my Rythmik L12 sub at 80Hz with the mains (which are set to "small").

    The result is very good for music and quite up to the task for movies. In my 18x14x8 room with two large opening to the rest of the lower floor the L12 easily rattles the windows and depending on the movies you can "feel" the bass through the couch :-)

    I believe that using the amp/AVR bass management to take care of the crossover point assures a better integration than "intercepting" the natural -3dB point of the main speakers lower extension with the upper end of the sub frequency response. It is not impossible or wrong to do it that way, if you have a stereo amp with no bass management, but again, if you can simplify use the bass management of the amp/AVR (which is essentially an electronic crossover), why not?

  10. #110
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    Mar 2017
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    Harrison, AR
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    15

    Default Re: Rythmik F8

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I like this idea!
    Were they close to 1/2 the cost of a dual F8, I would have 2 single F8's in a heartbeat.

    My application is 2.1 for music only in a small listening space. CBM 170-SE's have been ordered.
    External crossover(s) via Marchand XM-1 modules (LR 24db) are available to me.

    Good transient response and higher usable crossover points of the F8 interest me, but I am unclear if I can make good use of said higher crossover points.

    Can anyone tell me what frequency bass content usually goes from mono to stereo in recorded music?
    Late 60's/early 70's rock&roll is my main jam.
    If the answer is say, 100Hz or less then stereo content is being lost crossing a single F8 at 200Hz is my quandary.

    Space/fiscal constraints limit me to a single sub placed between the mains. An L12 is my backup plan if I can't satisfy myself that I can well utilize the higher crossover point available from the F8.

    I have made inquiry to Rythmik as to the feasibility of modifying an F8 to two separate 8"'s in the stock enclosure and am awaiting further response to my question.
    Last edited by Mazeppa; 04-09-2017 at 10:03 AM. Reason: correct a part #

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