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Thread: Ascend products in a difficult room

  1. #1
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    Default Ascend products in a difficult room

    Hello,

    New to the Ascend forum and am looking for real world experiences with a difficult room like mine. Note especially my L/R speaker placement constraints described in the novel below. Thanks in advance for help! Also, I have pictures/plans/room dimensions if that might help but not sure if OK or how to post.


    I am looking for L/R/C speakers to replace/upgrade my great room setup. Current setup includes 2 PSB alphas plus the higher-end alpha-compatible center channel from 10-15 years ago. I am using a big 15” def tech sub.

    The primary problem I’d like to solve is the intelligibility of dialog in the room, but I’d also like excellent sound for music. Things sound boomy and echoey in the room. The room and household realities present some significant problems.
    - Hardwood floors glued to concrete
    - One 9x9 rug in the listening area made of carpet and I can’t really go thicker due to mobility issues with an elderly member of the household
    - Sheetrock/drywall wall construction
    - High ceiling
    - Open kitchen area behind the listening area

    Adding to the challenges, speaker placement is severely constrained; I can come maybe a foot away from the walls for L/R. The center needs to be placed on a console under a wall-mounted TV, and the sub placement options are also severely limited; it needs to be next to the right speaker.

    Within the constraints of the room here is what I’m looking for:
    - Dialog intelligibility within the problem room
    - Good match to rock/alternative/folk music, natural sounding voices; I don’t listen to much classical or jazz
    - Excellent soundstage/imaging
    - Neutral sounding but forgiving of modern recordings
    - Specifically, I don’t want to hear a treble emphasis
    - OK with Onkyo higher-end/THX receiver providing power; iPod, blu-ray, DirecTV, and CDs as sources

    Here’s what I’ve heard so far or have, and what I think:
    - PSB Alpha setup described above: These sounded pretty good in my old, smaller and carpeted AV room. I had the center channel mounted above the TV and flush with the front, and I think that speaker was somewhat designed with that in mind. The alphas can’t handle percussion as loud as I occasionally listen, they bottom out. The overall tonality of the speakers isn’t bad.
    -Snell E3: (I own these and they are set up in a different room). I conceivably could put these in the great room but would need a suitable center channel, but let’s assume I’m buying new. The linked review does a pretty good job of covering the strengths & weaknesses I feel the speaker has; it’s too “forward” and a bit bright for what I want. Soundstage is just not good in most situations.
    - GoldenEar Triton 1 & Triton 2: Listened to these locally in questionable rooms with questionable placement; i.e., probably too close to the back & side walls. I had them turn the subwoofer settings way down (8 or 9 o’clock instead of 11 or 12). I kind of liked the sound but the bass seemed to lack articulation and vocals were a bit too recessed. The treble was very smooth and maybe a bit too laid back. Soundstage seemed good. I like the idea of these in that I could forgo the sub, but I think these are too big would need to be too far away from the wall in my space.
    -GoldenEar Aon 2: Bought these used and listened to and experimented with them in the room over the Labor day weekend. Musically they are smoother than the alphas but I’m just getting a bit more mid-base than I want in the room. Had trouble getting them to sound decent with the alpha center channel or even by themselves on some TV material. I think pulling them way away from the wall would help but I can’t really do that. Going to try them as nearfield computer speakers next.
    -B&W: Listened to various models at two different stores. The $7500 (model #) sounded best, and the 683 towers were next best and more within my price range… I have seen negative comments about the B&W center channel that would naturally go with the 683s and am going to continue looking. CM10s ($3500 pr?) were OK but I found the treble to be too much on those, and most of the B&W series.
    -PSB X2T: Not bad, let’s call them contenders at a reasonable $1300/pr. Heard these in a good, acoustically treated room though not ideally placed. Nothing really offensive about them. I don’t recall the imaging being great. One concern about these is that I don’t know that PSB has a center channel speaker that’s going to be any better than what I already have.
    - Sonus faber Liuto towers: Didn’t get a full listen but they were in the same room as the PSB X2T’s and they were in the optimal listening location. As the fates would have it, the speakers were bi-wired incorrectly at the amp, and trying to solve this issue, as well as how to get my iPod connected so I could hear familiar material, wasted most of the limited amount of time I had at this shop. All that said, from the limited listening I was able to do, these may be the best I heard. They are “on sale” at $4,500/pr from $6k, and might be worth it. I’m concerned about their center channel offering and I think placement in my room is likely to be an issue.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    I think a ribbon tweeter would be an excellent match for your room and requirements. The limited vertical displacement would be a bonus, minimizing some of the unwanted reflections. Rythmik subs are also very 'tight' sounding with no 'boominess' of their own.
    Nate

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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by natetg57 View Post
    I think a ribbon tweeter would be an excellent match for your room and requirements. The limited vertical displacement would be a bonus, minimizing some of the unwanted reflections. Rythmik subs are also very 'tight' sounding with no 'boominess' of their own.
    Thanks for the comment.

    Yeah, ribbons are an attractive option but I guess I'm more concerned about placement relative to the wall (my L/R speakers will need to be no more than 1 foot from the wall.)

    The Salk Songtowers supposedly can do well placed that close. I'm wondering what experiences would with with Ascend options (towers or bookshelves) that close to a wall & bass issues resulting from that.

    -Dick Locke

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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by dlocke View Post
    Thanks for the comment.

    Yeah, ribbons are an attractive option but I guess I'm more concerned about placement relative to the wall (my L/R speakers will need to be no more than 1 foot from the wall.)

    The Salk Songtowers supposedly can do well placed that close. I'm wondering what experiences would with with Ascend options (towers or bookshelves) that close to a wall & bass issues resulting from that.
    A foot should not be an issue, I think there are owners here that have them that close.

    The Songtowers can't defy physics, so they are susceptible to bass boundary gains like any other speaker. While they are not "ported" like the Sierras, the 1/4 wave transmission line also needs an outlet at the rear of the speaker. While the amount of air that comes out of the opening is different than a ported speaker, there is still sound coming from it. Also, their bass characteristics are different than the Sierra Tower. You read things like "smooth bass"...and I can understand the use of that term. IMO, the bass in the Sierra Tower is punchier, more articulate, and more dynamic than the Songtowers. It is something that really needs to be heard side by side.
    -curtis

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    A foot should not be an issue, I think there are owners here that have them that close.

    The Songtowers can't defy physics, so they are susceptible to bass boundary gains like any other speaker. While they are not "ported" like the Sierras, the 1/4 wave transmission line also needs an outlet at the rear of the speaker. While the amount of air that comes out of the opening is different than a ported speaker, there is still sound coming from it. Also, their bass characteristics are different than the Sierra Tower. You read things like "smooth bass"...and I can understand the use of that term. IMO, the bass in the Sierra Tower is punchier, more articulate, and more dynamic than the Songtowers. It is something that really needs to be heard side by side.
    Thanks, that makes sense.

    You mention a side by side comparison; I've been reviewing everything I can read for the last week or so and I don't think I've found comments where someone is comparing say Salk Songtowers & Ascend Sierra Towers directly. If such a comparison exists I would greatly appreciate pointers.

    One other thing that's caught my eye is that the Ascend Sierra Horizon center channel looks quite a bit more robust than the Salk Songcenter. Dialog intelligibility is a real challenge in my room and I wonder if the Ascend might do a better job.

    -Dick Locke

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by dlocke View Post
    Thanks, that makes sense.

    You mention a side by side comparison; I've been reviewing everything I can read for the last week or so and I don't think I've found comments where someone is comparing say Salk Songtowers & Ascend Sierra Towers directly. If such a comparison exists I would greatly appreciate pointers.

    One other thing that's caught my eye is that the Ascend Sierra Horizon center channel looks quite a bit more robust than the Salk Songcenter. Dialog intelligibility is a real challenge in my room and I wonder if the Ascend might do a better job.
    It was myself, and some other enthusiasts from the LA area.

    Nothing formal was written...if I had done that, because of my ownership of Ascend speakers and forum founder status, it sometimes causes ugliness in the forums. Some of the folks in attendance have posted short opinions in forums.

    As for robustness, my opinion is, but the Sierra Tower and the Horizon, are more robust than Songtower and Songcenter. The Sierra Tower handled more power than Songtower before it compressed. The Songtower does come with newer woofers now than the pair we heard, but my understanding is that it does not make much difference.

    I have seen/read some direct comparisons on AVS before.

    I really hope you get a chance to hear them both, if not side by side.
    Last edited by curtis; 09-03-2014 at 05:03 PM.
    -curtis

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Hello,

    It seems to me that the "Supercharged Song Tower" and center would be more of a direct comparison being that they both have the ribbons similar to the Sierra 2's. The Sierra's do have a price advantage vs. the Supercharged Salk's to consider. You probably could not go wrong with either brand. I can say that the Ascend's are a HIGH QUALITY product.

    Good Luck with whatever choice you make!!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by essneff View Post
    Hello,

    It seems to me that the "Supercharged Song Tower" and center would be more of a direct comparison being that they both have the ribbons similar to the Sierra 2's. The Sierra's do have a price advantage vs. the Supercharged Salk's to consider. You probably could not go wrong with either brand. I can say that the Ascend's are a HIGH QUALITY product.

    Good Luck with whatever choice you make!!
    Thanks for the comments. I've progressed a bit in my research and thought I'd post a short update.

    I have decided to go with ribbons. The Salk Songtower with center ribbons are $3940. The Sierra Tower plus Horizon is $4094 delivered. The supersalks would be quite a bit more.

    I've also started considering the Sierra-2, with matching center, at $2242. Lower sensitivity than the Sierra tower, but looks in-line with the Salks. Not a deal-breaker I'd say.

    I know what my room sounds like with the PSB and Aon 2 bookshelves, what I'm wondering is would towers with multiple drivers be likely to help overcome the room problems, or is the room the room?

    Thanks for any thoughts,

    -Dick Locke

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    The Bamboo upgrade on the Songs is $300. ($4240)
    The stated FR of the Salks is 42-20k.
    The Sierra's FR 34-27k
    Sensitivity: Salks 88db........Sierra's 92db
    In "Direct Mode" wouldn't the Sierra's play lower than the Songtower?
    I personally feel the Bamboo cabinet is well worth having.
    Last edited by essneff; 09-05-2014 at 06:28 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Ascend products in a difficult room

    Quote Originally Posted by essneff View Post
    The Bamboo upgrade on the Songs is $300. ($4240)
    The stated FR of the Salks is 42-20k.
    The Sierra's FR 34-27k
    Sensitivity: Salks 88db........Sierra's 92db
    In "Direct Mode" wouldn't the Sierra's play lower than the Songtower?
    I personally feel the Bamboo cabinet is well worth having.
    Thanks for the thoughts. After speaking with my wife last night she's going to be OK with towers so I'm sticking to those.

    A bit more info: I was quoted $4096 for black bamboo Sierra towers & Horizon with ribbons. The Salk Songtower web site lists the lower FR spec as 42 as you note, but Jim Salk stated "38 to 40kHz +/-3db" in an email to me. I expect that must be an "in room" perhaps with the pair he has available, but the Sierra's go lower regardless. This is less of a concern in that I expect to be running with a sub, at least for movies... But it would be a slight advantage if I choose to go without the sub for music.

    The other thing to consider is that supposedly the songtowers do better close to a wall. I measured everything last night and I should be able to stay 12 inches out from my walls with either of the towers. Not sure how much, if any, advantage there would be for the salks because of wall proximity.

    I will say the Horizon is a big plus in favor of Ascend. One of the main things that set me off on this quest was the need for a better dialog speaker. While the songcenter looks adequate, and would no doubt be much better than my PSB 200c, the horizon looks like a beast.

    Finally, as is being pointed out, the sensitivity differences are significant to me since home theater is a big consideration. More than double the power would be needed to drive the Salks to the same level as the Sierras.

    Wrestling with the decision but leaning towards the Siera's.

    -Dick Locke

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