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Thread: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    THX recommends four overhead speakers, to get the most lifting of the audio out of the plane and into a more 3-dimensional setting:

    https://www.avforums.com/podcast/avf...-special.11590

    Thanks for the link there, that is great information.

    Quote Originally Posted by N Boros View Post
    The downside to the wide horizontal dispersion of the Sierras with the Raal ribbon tweeter is that the vertical dispersion is more narrow. This is where two pairs of height speakers can fill in what is missing. That is what I am planning for in the future. I will likely get Raal ribbons for the 5 or maybe even 7 traditional surround speakers and then add two pair of ceiling speakers. I think that I want actual in-ceiling speakers though. So for me I have been thinking about NHT speakers, since their traditional speakers share quite similar design goals as Ascend: wide dispersion, flat frequency response, etc. If my ceiling height wasn't 7 to 8 feet (depending on the spot in my basement) and more like 8 to 9 feet I might just mount some of the HTM 200s up there.

    As for vertical dispersion, Dave wrote this in a reply to me on the Diamond Tweeter thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Keep in mind that limited vertical directivity, especially in a tower speaker, has very significant sonic benefits by reducing both floor and ceiling reflections... The design of our towers, even the dome versions, have limited vertical directivity. It is one of the main reasons for the somewhat unusual design of placing the midrange driver above the tweeter. That and providing a more defined acoustic center for a 3-way.

    When it comes down to comparing the vertical directivity of a 29mm dome versus the ribbon in the tower, we are really only talking about an increase of ~ +/- 5 degs, which isn't much... At 10 feet back, the vertical listening window expands by only ~ +/- 10 inches.
    I have indeed enjoyed a taller soundstage from the Aperion Verus Grand Center, but it was in a treated room without a vaulted ceiling like my room, so that is probably a big part of why the soundstage sounded so much taller there. I can't wait to get a better room to see how the soundstage height changes.

    Anyway, I also wonder if a pair of height speakers would make a notable improvement or difference, although I lack the funds or care to actually try it out.
    Last edited by sludgeogre; 05-16-2016 at 11:17 AM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    I think Dave is talking about a different context as far as the limited vertical dispersion. It doesn't matter as much as far as everyone sitting down (though being at slightly different heights) having basically the same experience, even if you have two rows of seating with a riser for the second row. But, now with immersive audio we would like to be able to locate an object at an elevated position above us at any angle or direction. This is actually a much more difficult task. We don't just want to locate objects in a plane but in half of a sphere above us. Furthermore, the wide dispersion that was helping us do this in the plane, is no longer a help, since vertically we have a more narrow dispersion. My point is that having more in-ceiling speakers will make less of a gap to fill in, so that hopefully there aren't many "gaps" where objects above can't be precisely located. This is along the lines of why THX recommends two pairs of overhead speakers for immersive audio.

    It is a hard sell for me too, the immersive audio thing. With audio not getting nearly as much care and attention as video gets and the problem only getting worse, as far as movies and TV. With more and more streaming, I don't know if we will get lossless audio, let alone immersive audio. I hope I'm wrong about this though.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Another vote for the HTM-200se as ceiling speakers. I have 4 and they do a fantastic job. Here's what I did:

    http://imgur.com/a/uw095

    "Not sure if you have attic access, but I'm currently installing 4 HTM-200s as tops for atmos. The two inserts are not in the middle of the speaker, so I didn't trust flush mounting them on the ceiling because 3/4 of the weight would essentially be functioning as a lever. I'm sure they would be just fine, but I'm a big fan of overkill.

    I added 2 hanger bolts at the same distance from the edge as the top inserts. I didn't want to penetrate the back of the speaker, so I only drilled 1/2" deep and put the screws in .43" deep. I used 2 threaded rods for the inserts (which for some reason are M6 not 1/4-20 on all 4 speakers).

    On another note, my initial impression of adding the tops (TF/TR) in my 5.2.4 is amazing! Sound all around and I don't miss the rears one bit. It's like going from 2.1 to 5.1. The dolby upmixer is also phenomenal.

    They blend perfectly with the RAAL towers and horizon. IMHO, they are excellent atmos speakers. "

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Hey Boros. I remember that interview. AVForums did a wonderful job with the time they had. I remember them stating that if you used 4 overhead to use top middles and top fronts as the top backs tend to get lost into the rear surround due to the seating placement of the average user. And if you were to use only 2 that you were to use top middles.

    I went back and listened to it and the only thing I believe they didn't recommend was not having rear surrounds and don't aim the ceiling speakers. I couldn't find them stating that only 2 height speakers didn't give much of a height experience.

    Also watched the Grimani HTG interview. I believe he said that he began installing that setup, because the wides seemed to be used more than the overhead speakers. And while I don't always agree with everything he does, what he says about the hole that wides fill in, tends to ring true with my experiences with them -- I have 340 se front soundstage and HTM-200 surrounds. And while I can't say enough about how well these speakers work together to create a believable sound field, I have to say that another dimension was added when I added wides. It can only be explained by not knowing what you are missing 'till you add them and then remove them. I have since removed them only because I am a timbre snob and the self powered speakers I was using didn't timbre match in my setup. This is what makes Atmos so appealing to me. A ligitement format that actually takes advantage of wides. An object is getting mixed into a 3D space, so one can add wides and still hear how it was supposed to be heard in full spectrum.

    I'm not sure how well adding top middle and top front Raals will sound. It's not going to fill in the gaps like multiple subwoofers would, at least above 400 Hz when frequencies become more directional. I believe what you will hear is a distracting timbre mismatch beyond the realms of what Audyssey can correct. The vertical dispersion of the Raal really begins to become unstable at 15 degrees. 35 degrees is asking too much IMO. However, one way to possibly make it work would be to rotate the speaker so that the horizontal dispersion is working in tandem with the length of the room.

    But every room/speaker combo will work differently together so he could always place the top middles and temporarly place the wides and then try top fronts to see what he likes better. In the end, going with a Raal setup is a no-brainer in my book as they are a superior technically on almost all fronts. I know that's what I will be moving to when I switch to Atmos.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Mac_III View Post
    I went back and listened to it and the only thing I believe they didn't recommend was not having rear surrounds and don't aim the ceiling speakers. I couldn't find them stating that only 2 height speakers didn't give much of a height experience.
    I guess I listen to too many podcasts (AVRant, Home Theater Geeks and occasionally AVForums) and read too many webpages (Audioholics, Sound and Vision, etc.) that I am losing track of what I hear where. I listened that particular THX interview about three times now, since there is a lot of information given, so I figured my memory about was accurate. I guess I was wrong. Anyways, it must have been a comment from Rob on AVRant or Mark Hennenger on Home Theater Geeds, then. But, I definitely remember hearing someone talk about it and I filed it away in memory as something important for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Mac_III View Post
    I'm not sure how well adding top middle and top front Raals will sound. It's not going to fill in the gaps like multiple subwoofers would, at least above 400 Hz when frequencies become more directional. I believe what you will hear is a distracting timbre mismatch beyond the realms of what Audyssey can correct. The vertical dispersion of the Raal really begins to become unstable at 15 degrees. 35 degrees is asking too much IMO. However, one way to possibly make it work would be to rotate the speaker so that the horizontal dispersion is working in tandem with the length of the room.
    Maybe I didn't communicate clearly what I was thinking, before. I think we are mostly in agreement. My concern was about having, say all Raal tweeters for the traditional 7 speakers. The wide dispersion horizontally is great at filling in the gaps. Imagine a soundtrack, like Spiderman 3 where Sandman got his powers, where a sound circles around you multiple times. The wide dispersion, like the Ascends with the Raal ribbon tweeters can basically make this a seamless transition from one of those 7 speakers to the next. I don't have wide speakers to test this, but I'm not sure if it would be noticeably more seamless, than just with 5 or 7 traditional surround speakers.

    Now imagine a plane flying overhead. If you just have top middle speakers (say the HTM 200s) and the Raal ribbons for the 7 traditional surround speakers, with limited vertical dispersion, then the handoff from those speakers to only one pair of ceiling speakers won't likely be as seamless. As you say, a possible fix would be to get the new Sierra Sat's and turn them sideways, but that is an awfully expensive fix to the problem and it may not even do that completely. This is why I think that two pairs of top speakers, like the HTM 200s or something similar as top fronts and top middle would be a better use of the limited 11 speakers we can use. I am pretty much convinced that most sounds in a well recorded soundtrack can have their location, at ear level, accurately located by just the seven traditional surround speakers. I can't image just one pair of overhead speakers allowing the same locating ability overhead, especially if the floor speakers all have limited vertical dispersion.

    Anyways, I haven't gotten into Atmos speakers yet, so I can't say for certain that anything I said makes sense in reality. But, in terms of the dispersion patterns, it seems like it makes the most sense to me.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood your point. And You make some great points btw.

    Also, after listening to theAV Rant podcast, I believe Rob said that most home mixes are made from the 7.1.4 variety. So I would think that having 4 overhead will probably steer and like you said, transition the object better.

    This week he also said not to worry so much about the timber mismatch of the overhead speakers. So, if Rob (the one who bought 11 Raal ribbon speakers to have a timber matched system) is okay with a slight timber mismatch on the ceiling, we all would probably not even notice it

    So yeah, 4 200s looks like that's where it's at. This is the hardest thing about Atmos, because it's not like the side and back surrounds where you can move them around to find what works best. Unless you have a drop ceiling, once you cut 4 holes in the ceilng, you are marrying it. For better or for worse...

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Mac_III View Post

    So yeah, 4 200s looks like that's where it's at. This is the hardest thing about Atmos, because it's not like the side and back surrounds where you can move them around to find what works best. Unless you have a drop ceiling, once you cut 4 holes in the ceilng, you are marrying it. For better or for worse...
    I did just that using two 8' on stage speaker stands with a 2x4 between them. The speakers were hung from the 2x4 (made a plate with holes then bolts went through the plate into the speakers)and I could move the speakers individually and the whole setup around for testing.

    One of the main things I learned was that I didn't want them right above me. It was too distracting, not immersive. So I would never go with only 2 atmos speakers. The panning was also soooo much better with 4. Note: I have 8' ceilings in my room.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by yesplease View Post
    I did just that using two 8' on stage speaker stands with a 2x4 between them. The speakers were hung from the 2x4 (made a plate with holes then bolts went through the plate into the speakers)and I could move the speakers individually and the whole setup around for testing.

    One of the main things I learned was that I didn't want them right above me. It was too distracting, not immersive. So I would never go with only 2 atmos speakers. The panning was also soooo much better with 4. Note: I have 8' ceilings in my room.
    That's smart! Thanks for the idea! What angles did you find worked best with the HTM-200s?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Mac_III View Post
    That's smart! Thanks for the idea! What angles did you find worked best with the HTM-200s?
    If I remember correctly, it was about 4-6" further then the minimum distance. When I moved them more then that, it lost some of the bubble, any closer and it was distracting.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I definitely don't agree that we are in an Atmos world, I would say less than 5% of our customers and even new inquiring customers have plans to go with a full Atmos setup, although that percentage does seem to be increasing lately.

    That said, why not mount HTM-200's on the ceiling? Or are you looking at an in-ceiling solution?
    I am considering mounting the 200's on the wall, but am waiting for the Sat's/Luna's!? I don't want anything to degrade the sound stage of the sierra's. I would love to hear from someone with the HTM-200's as atmos and sierrra's to get their impressions.
    Last edited by cranster; 07-28-2016 at 01:12 AM.

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