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Thread: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

  1. #1
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    Default Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Now that Dolby Atmos has been announced as trickling down to consumer receivers this fall, I wonder if this will create a market for small speakers, in particular those that can be relatively easily ceiling mounted, both for flat ceilings and sloped ceilings. Maybe an Ascend Acoustics specialty ceiling mounted speaker....

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Indeed! I honestly don't think the majority of consumers will be into the whole ceiling speakers thing. Frankly, I don't really think Dolby or any of their announced CE partners think it either, which is why they've created the new "Dolby Atmos Enabled" and "Atmos Module" speaker classes. A single, upward-firing driver isn't exactly my idea of high fidelity, though. haha

    As far as what this might mean for Ascend, though:

    First, for the SE Series, the HTM-200 SE once again demonstrates its versatility and usefulness. I think it's already pretty much the perfect design for a small, sealed speaker that could be mounted to ceilings.

    But the Sierra series has no equivalent. We've certainly poked at the idea of on-wall Sierra Series speakers, though. And Dave F. certainly seems at least somewhat interested in the idea. To me, it would make perfect sense to develop on-wall speakers using the existing Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT, and Sierra-2 drivers.

    Dave already looked into designing a Sierra-0.5 that would essentially have the same dimensions as the HTM-200 SE. But, at the time, he determined there was no way to keep the bamboo cabinet material, develop new 4" drivers, and keep the price point lower than that of the Sierra bookshelf speakers. Perhaps the 4" driver problem could be overcome now thanks to SEAS' CURV woofers (the woven polypropylene material being used in the Sierra-2 woofer, which was instrumental and vital to its success). But the other factors I'm not so sure about. But on-wall versions of the Sierra bookshelf models could use larger cabinets and probably command a slightly higher price point without it seeming the least bit out of place to consumers

    Getting into full on in-wall or in-ceiling speakers doesn't seem to be Ascend's target. Personally, I think on-walls are enough and the better way to go.

    But what about Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers or Atmos Modules? Def Tech announced Modules. And all of Ascend's speakers have flat surfaces, so upward-firing Modules are certainly possible. It's just a matter of whether Dave would be interested in ever selling something that looks like such a compromised design! haha

    But I think those are the best ways forward for Ascend when it comes to Atmos. HTM-200 SE for the SE Series, a new on-wall Sierra Series cabinet that could use any of the Sierra bookshelf driver configurations, and maybe an Atmos Module for both Series that could be added to any existing Ascend setups.

    Of course, there's always the option to just forgo the ceiling placement and use traditional Height speaker placement. Technically, I already have a 9.2.2 configuration under the new naming convention. And I'm rather hoping that Marantz AV8802 Pre/Pro will allow for 9.2.4 ! I need an excuse to buy two more Ascend speakers

    - Rob H.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    8802 like the rest of the 1st gen processors will be limited to 5.2.2, 5.2.4, 7.2.2, and 7.2.4 Atmos configs. Traditional Heights placement won't work too well as the processor will still assume you are using top center placement.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Well, maybe I'll just have 13 speakers connected and switch between various 11 speaker configurations as necessary

    It's definitely a bit confusing with the Denon and Marantz AV Receivers and Pre/Pros. They've all got 13.2 RCA pre-outs, but clearly no means of using 13 speakers simultaneously. The high end Receivers have 11 sets of speaker binding posts, and the AV7702 has 11 XLR outputs. It's made fairly clear from those layouts that you'd have to make a choice between either Height 2 speakers OR Front Wide speakers.

    But the AV8802 has 13 XLR pre-outs in addition to the 13 RCA pre-outs. Having all 13 of those XLR pre-outs available was what gave me some hope that 13 speakers simultaneously might be possible. That along with Onkyo's claim that their 11 channel 3030 Receiver and Pre-pro can do a 9.1.2 Atmos configuration. So at least according to Onkyo/Integra, you could still make use of Front Wide speakers in an Atmos configuration

    So...yeah, I was just thinking that if 9.1.2 is possible, why not 9.1.4? haha

    The placement guidelines for the Atmos ceiling speakers has not been made totally clear yet, though. One of the hopes I had was that Atmos at home might be similar to what they've been describing in cinemas where it doesn't really matter where you position the speakers (within reason). That the Atmos processor will adapt and remix the soundtrack on the fly to make the best possible use of the speakers that you have.

    Well, none of that seems to apply to the 5 or 7 speaker "bed" layer. That's still the traditional 5 or 7 speaker Dolby layout -- and I'm totally fine with that, although it would have been very cool if Atmos were to allow for less than ideal 5 and 7 speaker placement with compensation happening in the processor.

    But it looks as though we've got that "bed" layer, and then the Atmos layer on top of that. Onkyo describes that Atmos at home will adapt to however many additional speakers you have - .2 ceiling, .4 ceiling, or 2 Front Wides plus .2 ceiling. But they didn't talk about adapting to the placement of those ceiling speakers.

    So the question becomes: where exactly are those ceiling speakers meant to be placed? I've heard some speculation that it might work a little bit like the Surround Back speakers. For example, most Receivers will have options for the Surround Back speakers as part of the speaker setup to let you set them as being <1 foot apart, 1-4 feet apart, or >4 feet apart. So I've heard some speculation that the Atmos ceiling speakers might get something similar as in how high above your Front speakers are your Height 1 speakers? And how high above your Surround speakers are your Height 2 speakers?

    All of the diagrams of the Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers indicate them shooting up at the ceiling at an angle, though.

    Point is, nothing about the exact placement of the ceiling speakers is super clear to me right now. Furthermore, Onkyo has their existing HTiB system that will be getting the Dolby Atmos firmware update. That system has 7 regular speakers rather than 5 Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers, and Onkyo says right on their webpage that the 7 speakers in that system can be set up as a 5.1.2 Atmos system with the 6th and 7th speakers acting as Height speakers.

    Yamaha has their microphone system that allows of actual angle calculations. That could certainly work to allow for a variety of ceiling speaker placements that don't necessarily adhere to strict placement guidelines. But I've not seen anything from the Denon/Marantz announcements that would indicate they're using a new microphone scheme for their auto-setup; still appears to just be the lone Audyssey microphone.

    Anywho, I'm sure more details will be forthcoming. Using the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers is probably the easiest way for anyone to be in compliance with whatever new guidelines will be released. But for anyone who's actually trying to plan and build a home theater right now with ceiling speakers, it would be nice to have some firmer guidelines as to where exactly those speakers are meant to be positioned!

    - Rob H.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Again, it is already known that 1st gen Atmos processors won't be correcting for any speaker positions including the ceiling layer even if their RC software is capable of measuring speaker angles.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Woo. Some more details via Dolby's FAQ.

    Doesn't totally answer everything, yet, but it's starting to get a bit clearer:

    http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

    I joked at one point about buying 50 more speakers from Dave for a complete Dolby Atmos system at home. Well, it's not quite that many, but "24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead" comes uncomfortably close! I was only joking...yeesh.

    haha

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    So as far as I can gather, the .4 systems with the 4 ceiling speakers don't have super specific placement requirements, nor will any of the consumer AV Receivers take precise angle and placement measurements (even though Yamaha's 3040 can do so, but they're only using that for their own CinemaDSP listening modes).

    So it's more of a, "I have one speaker that is overhead, somewhat to the left, and somewhat in front of me; a second speaker that is overhead, somewhat to the right, and somewhat in front of me; a third speaker that is overhead, somewhat to the left, and somewhat behind me; and a fourth speaker that is overhead, somewhat to the right, and somewhat behind me."

    The "Atmos in Dolby TrueHD" and "Atmos in Dolby Digital Plus" soundtracks would - according to that Dolby FAQ above - be able to make use of as many as 34 speakers (I'm assuming, much like the 64 speaker quote for commercial movie theaters that that includes subwoofers somewhere in that number).

    So then it's simply up to the Dolby Atmos decoder in the AV Receiver or Processor. Tell it you've got 5.1.2 and it'll assume your overhead speakers are somewhat in front of you and somewhat to the left and right. So none of the object-based sounds will be super precise. It seems as though it's going to be a case of having the sounds vaguely come from the intended direction.

    So, sound object A was supposed to come from these specific xyz coordinates in space? OK, well that's vaguely up, in front, and to the right, so we'll put it in the Top Right Front speaker. Good enough

    That seems to be the case, anyway. So I don't think we'll be getting super precise placement of sound objects in 3D space, but more of an, "up and that-a-way" bit of vagueness. I think I'm ok with that

    Unless, of course, you go for that 32 channel Processor Dolby mentioned. You should be able to get pretty darn precise with that! And it's cool that the "Atmos in TrueHD" soundtracks themselves will contain that level of precision. That means it's really just up to the Atmos decoders. The data is in there, the exact coordinates for the sound objects is in there. Whether we tell our Processors exactly where we have speakers by using angle-sensing microphone schemes or by simply entering data manually doesn't really matter in the end

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Dolby Atmos Speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstReflect View Post
    Woo. Some more details via Dolby's FAQ.

    Doesn't totally answer everything, yet, but it's starting to get a bit clearer:

    http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

    I joked at one point about buying 50 more speakers from Dave for a complete Dolby Atmos system at home. Well, it's not quite that many, but "24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead" comes uncomfortably close! I was only joking...yeesh.

    haha
    I found it very interesting that Dolby "...designed the technology for rooms with ceiling heights of 8 to 9 feet...". I would have thought that one needs higher ceiling heights to really take advantage of the technology. It makes sense, that Dolby designed it this way since it would seem that the majority of folks will have an 8 to 9 foot ceiling for their home theater. I am working towards building a theater room in my basement within the next few years and completely dismissed Atmos height speakers because I will only have an 8 foot ceiling. But, reading this link gets me a little bit excited about it maybe trying it out if it seems like a worthwhile upgrade for the expense of the extra speakers.

    Like others have suggested, I would think that the HTM 200 SE speakers would be perfect candidates, unless Dave decides to make some on-wall Sierras. It is convenient that with all this excitement of receivers and processors with Dolby Atmos coming very soon, there is also a current sale on the HTM 200 SE speakers. So for a little under $600 you can get all four Atmos height speakers.
    Last edited by N Boros; 06-30-2014 at 12:27 PM.

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