Dolby Atmos Speakers?

[Tallen234]

Now that Dolby Atmos has been announced as trickling down to consumer receivers this fall, I wonder if this will create a market for small speakers, in particular those that can be relatively easily ceiling mounted, both for flat ceilings and sloped ceilings. Maybe an Ascend Acoustics specialty ceiling mounted speaker....

[FirstReflect]

Indeed! I honestly don't think the majority of consumers will be into the whole ceiling speakers thing. Frankly, I don't really think Dolby or any of their announced CE partners think it either, which is why they've created the new "Dolby Atmos Enabled" and "Atmos Module" speaker classes. A single, upward-firing driver isn't exactly my idea of high fidelity, though. haha

As far as what this might mean for Ascend, though:

First, for the SE Series, the HTM-200 SE once again demonstrates its versatility and usefulness. I think it's already pretty much the perfect design for a small, sealed speaker that could be mounted to ceilings.

But the Sierra series has no equivalent. We've certainly poked at the idea of on-wall Sierra Series speakers, though. And Dave F. certainly seems at least somewhat interested in the idea. To me, it would make perfect sense to develop on-wall speakers using the existing Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT, and Sierra-2 drivers.

Dave already looked into designing a Sierra-0.5 that would essentially have the same dimensions as the HTM-200 SE. But, at the time, he determined there was no way to keep the bamboo cabinet material, develop new 4" drivers, and keep the price point lower than that of the Sierra bookshelf speakers. Perhaps the 4" driver problem could be overcome now thanks to SEAS' CURV woofers (the woven polypropylene material being used in the Sierra-2 woofer, which was instrumental and vital to its success). But the other factors I'm not so sure about. But on-wall versions of the Sierra bookshelf models could use larger cabinets and probably command a slightly higher price point without it seeming the least bit out of place to consumers

Getting into full on in-wall or in-ceiling speakers doesn't seem to be Ascend's target. Personally, I think on-walls are enough and the better way to go.

But what about Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers or Atmos Modules? Def Tech announced Modules. And all of Ascend's speakers have flat surfaces, so upward-firing Modules are certainly possible. It's just a matter of whether Dave would be interested in ever selling something that looks like such a compromised design! haha

But I think those are the best ways forward for Ascend when it comes to Atmos. HTM-200 SE for the SE Series, a new on-wall Sierra Series cabinet that could use any of the Sierra bookshelf driver configurations, and maybe an Atmos Module for both Series that could be added to any existing Ascend setups.

Of course, there's always the option to just forgo the ceiling placement and use traditional Height speaker placement. Technically, I already have a 9.2.2 configuration under the new naming convention. And I'm rather hoping that Marantz AV8802 Pre/Pro will allow for 9.2.4 ! I need an excuse to buy two more Ascend speakers

- Rob H.

[Kisakuku]

8802 like the rest of the 1st gen processors will be limited to 5.2.2, 5.2.4, 7.2.2, and 7.2.4 Atmos configs. Traditional Heights placement won't work too well as the processor will still assume you are using top center placement.

[FirstReflect]

Well, maybe I'll just have 13 speakers connected and switch between various 11 speaker configurations as necessary

It's definitely a bit confusing with the Denon and Marantz AV Receivers and Pre/Pros. They've all got 13.2 RCA pre-outs, but clearly no means of using 13 speakers simultaneously. The high end Receivers have 11 sets of speaker binding posts, and the AV7702 has 11 XLR outputs. It's made fairly clear from those layouts that you'd have to make a choice between either Height 2 speakers OR Front Wide speakers.

But the AV8802 has 13 XLR pre-outs in addition to the 13 RCA pre-outs. Having all 13 of those XLR pre-outs available was what gave me some hope that 13 speakers simultaneously might be possible. That along with Onkyo's claim that their 11 channel 3030 Receiver and Pre-pro can do a 9.1.2 Atmos configuration. So at least according to Onkyo/Integra, you could still make use of Front Wide speakers in an Atmos configuration

So...yeah, I was just thinking that if 9.1.2 is possible, why not 9.1.4? haha

The placement guidelines for the Atmos ceiling speakers has not been made totally clear yet, though. One of the hopes I had was that Atmos at home might be similar to what they've been describing in cinemas where it doesn't really matter where you position the speakers (within reason). That the Atmos processor will adapt and remix the soundtrack on the fly to make the best possible use of the speakers that you have.

Well, none of that seems to apply to the 5 or 7 speaker "bed" layer. That's still the traditional 5 or 7 speaker Dolby layout -- and I'm totally fine with that, although it would have been very cool if Atmos were to allow for less than ideal 5 and 7 speaker placement with compensation happening in the processor.

But it looks as though we've got that "bed" layer, and then the Atmos layer on top of that. Onkyo describes that Atmos at home will adapt to however many additional speakers you have - .2 ceiling, .4 ceiling, or 2 Front Wides plus .2 ceiling. But they didn't talk about adapting to the placement of those ceiling speakers.

So the question becomes: where exactly are those ceiling speakers meant to be placed? I've heard some speculation that it might work a little bit like the Surround Back speakers. For example, most Receivers will have options for the Surround Back speakers as part of the speaker setup to let you set them as being <1 foot apart, 1-4 feet apart, or >4 feet apart. So I've heard some speculation that the Atmos ceiling speakers might get something similar as in how high above your Front speakers are your Height 1 speakers? And how high above your Surround speakers are your Height 2 speakers?

All of the diagrams of the Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers indicate them shooting up at the ceiling at an angle, though.

Point is, nothing about the exact placement of the ceiling speakers is super clear to me right now. Furthermore, Onkyo has their existing HTiB system that will be getting the Dolby Atmos firmware update. That system has 7 regular speakers rather than 5 Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers, and Onkyo says right on their webpage that the 7 speakers in that system can be set up as a 5.1.2 Atmos system with the 6th and 7th speakers acting as Height speakers.

Yamaha has their microphone system that allows of actual angle calculations. That could certainly work to allow for a variety of ceiling speaker placements that don't necessarily adhere to strict placement guidelines. But I've not seen anything from the Denon/Marantz announcements that would indicate they're using a new microphone scheme for their auto-setup; still appears to just be the lone Audyssey microphone.

Anywho, I'm sure more details will be forthcoming. Using the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers is probably the easiest way for anyone to be in compliance with whatever new guidelines will be released. But for anyone who's actually trying to plan and build a home theater right now with ceiling speakers, it would be nice to have some firmer guidelines as to where exactly those speakers are meant to be positioned!

- Rob H.

[Kisakuku]

Again, it is already known that 1st gen Atmos processors won't be correcting for any speaker positions including the ceiling layer even if their RC software is capable of measuring speaker angles.

[Kisakuku]

[cranster]

I have Sierra towers raal, horizon raal, 4 Sierra 2's, and 1 lv12r. I will add another lv12r. I want to add 4 ceiling speakers because my ceiling is only 7 feet so up firing modules are out. Since there is no atmos solution from ascend I am looking for ceiling speakers with timber cohesion with the sierra's and raal. I've read that Dave told someone that speaker craft is a good option. Which speakercraft?
I am going to add an x7200 wa to drive the speakers and will probably use my marantz 7008 for the last 2 channels in 7.2.4 setup.

It's time to realize we are in an atmos world and we need an ascend solution. If ascend doesn't produce their own atmos speakers then perhaps a partnership with the right atmos speaker company like Dave has with Rythmik. If not then recommendations would be great. Thanks. I am looking for mind blowing. I can afford a thousand dollars apiece, but less would be better.

[Johnny_Mac_III]

I think a good solution when using a RAAL setup would be to go with a 9.2.2 setup. This way you can place 2 Seirra Sats above you. This will keep you within the dispersion limits of the RALL. Then take advantage of using wides.

[N Boros]

I think a good solution when using a RAAL setup would be to go with a 9.2.2 setup. This way you can place 2 Seirra Sats above you. This will keep you within the dispersion limits of the RALL. Then take advantage of using wides.

THX recommends four overhead speakers, to get the most lifting of the audio out of the plane and into a more 3-dimensional setting:

https://www.avforums.com/podcast/avf...-special.11590

To sum up, they recommended, after much experimentation, to add top fronts and top middle speakers to the ceiling on top of a traditional 7.1 system for the best height effect. They said that just top middles alone didn't really produce as much of a height experience.

I've listened to Anthony Grimani talk about this same issue on Home Theater Geeks and he seems to think that wides are more important than the extra pair of height speakers, but I'm not sure I agree. I think that the majority of new immersive audio soundtracks will be mixed with more height in mind than using the wides. Also, if one has a good set of speakers like Ascend for the traditional 7.1 speakers, then I don't think that the speakers need much extra help of wides to fill in the gap. I was recently watching a Blu-ray of the 4th or 5th Season of Boardwalk Empire and thunder struck between the side right surround and right front speaker. I have Sierra 2s for my fronts and some Aperion audio speakers mounted up near the ceiling angled down for side surrounds (this is not optimally how I would like them placed, but I am saving up to get some Ascend speakers here, and then I will optimally place them). Anyways, the sound of the thunder strike was about 10 feet to the right of either the surround or main speaker almost directly between them. It was eerie. I backed up and replayed this scene several times, since I thought it was actually thunder outside my house since it was too far beyond the speakers to actually be there. Sure enough, it was coming from the soundtrack. The Ascend speakers working with the Aperion speakers can do an amazing job of locating objects in space near you, as well as quite a bit away from you. I might even go so far as saying that in the horizontal plane, a good set of Ascend speakers can likely put a sound anywhere inside of the circular region between the speakers and even quite a bit outside that region as well. This is on well recorded audio tracks, of course.

The downside to the wide horizontal dispersion of the Sierras with the Raal ribbon tweeter is that the vertical dispersion is more narrow. This is where two pairs of height speakers can fill in what is missing. That is what I am planning for in the future. I will likely get Raal ribbons for the 5 or maybe even 7 traditional surround speakers and then add two pair of ceiling speakers. I think that I want actual in-ceiling speakers though. So for me I have been thinking about NHT speakers, since their traditional speakers share quite similar design goals as Ascend: wide dispersion, flat frequency response, etc. If my ceiling height wasn't 7 to 8 feet (depending on the spot in my basement) and more like 8 to 9 feet I might just mount some of the HTM 200s up there.

[sludgeogre]

THX recommends four overhead speakers, to get the most lifting of the audio out of the plane and into a more 3-dimensional setting:

https://www.avforums.com/podcast/avf...-special.11590

Thanks for the link there, that is great information.

The downside to the wide horizontal dispersion of the Sierras with the Raal ribbon tweeter is that the vertical dispersion is more narrow. This is where two pairs of height speakers can fill in what is missing. That is what I am planning for in the future. I will likely get Raal ribbons for the 5 or maybe even 7 traditional surround speakers and then add two pair of ceiling speakers. I think that I want actual in-ceiling speakers though. So for me I have been thinking about NHT speakers, since their traditional speakers share quite similar design goals as Ascend: wide dispersion, flat frequency response, etc. If my ceiling height wasn't 7 to 8 feet (depending on the spot in my basement) and more like 8 to 9 feet I might just mount some of the HTM 200s up there.

As for vertical dispersion, Dave wrote this in a reply to me on the Diamond Tweeter thread:

Keep in mind that limited vertical directivity, especially in a tower speaker, has very significant sonic benefits by reducing both floor and ceiling reflections... The design of our towers, even the dome versions, have limited vertical directivity. It is one of the main reasons for the somewhat unusual design of placing the midrange driver above the tweeter. That and providing a more defined acoustic center for a 3-way.

When it comes down to comparing the vertical directivity of a 29mm dome versus the ribbon in the tower, we are really only talking about an increase of ~ +/- 5 degs, which isn't much... At 10 feet back, the vertical listening window expands by only ~ +/- 10 inches.

I have indeed enjoyed a taller soundstage from the Aperion Verus Grand Center, but it was in a treated room without a vaulted ceiling like my room, so that is probably a big part of why the soundstage sounded so much taller there. I can't wait to get a better room to see how the soundstage height changes.

Anyway, I also wonder if a pair of height speakers would make a notable improvement or difference, although I lack the funds or care to actually try it out.