Receiver Recommendations for Sierra-2

[petmotel]

Markie, as convinced as you are about the differences that exist in modern electronics, you should certainly take the Richard Clark challenge, and take home the $10,000 he offers to anyone whom can actually reliably hear the difference between any two given amps, within the confines of his rather generous rules. Thousands have tried, no one has yet taken the prize. The above video also mentions that as modern technology is now producing even inexpensive gear that measures with distortion, frequency response, and time based errors well below the threshold of audibility, they will sound the same.

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

Now I'm sure you have plenty of reasons why this challenge is not applicable, but eventually that stance becomes simply unsustainable. In fact, I really don't even know how to respond to someone whom will routinely argue against the virtue of an ABX test because it does not conform to their preconceived notions. I do hope many of the neophytes here take the time to educate themselves without being talked into taking that blind leap of faith into the world of high end mysticism, which offers nothing but an empty wallet.

To take the discussion back on track, features, durability, power output, a good room correction implementation, good bass management, and aesthetic appeal are probably more important considerations than "sound quality".

Jay

[FirstReflect]

Well, there's the biggest factor of all in terms of what we hear: psychology. And we don't understand or have very good or complete measurements for that.

You should not have to see a product, know its price tag, or know what brand made it in order to compare its sound. My favourite situation is when there are two products in a room under comparison, the person making the comparison is told which one is more expensive or which brand is which, and then they listen and compare. The person will almost always pick out some differences and most often say that the more expensive unit or the more prestigious brand sounded best. And only after all of that is it revealed that only one of the products was ever actually playing. The 2nd unit in the "comparison" was never even connected!

So how do people explain THAT? Are they going to try and claim that micro environmental changes in air pressure made them hear a difference? I've seen BS like that -- haha

Nope, it's that all important factor: psychology. Why do two products that measure extremely similarly sound different? They don't. And if you didn't know which was which, or better yet, if you weren't even aware that any change was being made what-so-ever, you'd never be able to tell them apart. But the second you're made aware that a change in equipment was made, suddenly you'll swear up and down that you heard the difference.

We need to be more reasonable about this stuff. If we ever want to talk about value and actually getting our money's worth, we shouldn't be concerned with differences that are so small that we can easily be tricked as to whether there really was or was not a difference by a simple psychological nudging. You should be able to tell the difference "blind". You shouldn't need to be aware that a change in equipment is being made; the difference in sound ought to be real and noticeable enough that you pick up on it even when you had no idea that someone swapped out one piece of gear for another! Otherwise, how can you possibly justify the expenditure?

[markie]

Hi Jay,

I don't dispute that Richard Clark challenge, in its context. First, it is about amps, not receivers. Amps by themselves are much harder to distinguish than receivers of course, especially when their performance is constrained the way the test dictates.

In real world conditions things change quite dramatically. For instance, a few weeks ago I took (and completed) the Golden Ears Challenge at https://www.goldenears.philips.com. I found that for some tests I had to crank the volume to start hearing a difference in some sonic attributes. From that I conclude that my hearing is more discriminating at somewhat louder volumes. Yet it would be those volumes which are prohibited by Clark's test for clipping reasons. Just saying.

I should point out that in the article you linked, it reported Clark's test as an ABX. But when I read a link to the actual test, I could only glean that it was an AB test, not an ABX. Big difference ime.

Mark

[markie]

Hi FR,

Psychology, namely expectation bias, is for real. But for experienced, grounded and objective reviewers that effect is very minimal, at best. I've read too much from reviewers who were frankly disappointed at products they expected more from for the price.

I agree about noting differences without having to be told. I've heard stories where a guy has stealthily swapped out items in his system, only later to have his wife comment on how something sounded better (or worse) in the sound. Now that's the real deal!

Mark

[GrandMasterJ]

While I don't mind the tangents into the theoretical, my primary purpose for this thread was to give some guidance into selecting a good match-up for the Sierra-2 speakers by providing viable selections. The purpose was not only for me, but also for any future users looking for the same information.

While I am not looking for an abundance of choices, recommendations remain at:
Emotiva Fusion 8100
Denon AVR-x4000

No other contenders?

*Personally, I am not in favor of products made in China which these both appear to be.

[petmotel]

While I don't mind the tangents into the theoretical, my primary purpose for this thread was to give some guidance into selecting a good match-up for the Sierra-2 speakers by providing viable selections. The purpose was not only for me, but also for any future users looking for the same information.

While I am not looking for an abundance of choices, recommendations remain at:
Emotiva Fusion 8100
Denon AVR-x4000

No other contenders?

*Personally, I am not in favor of products made in China which these both appear to be.

Personally have had good luck with Anthem products, which used to be built in Canada, but they are also built in China now. I really like the Anthem room correction, and their processors have great configurability options.

http://www.anthemav.com/products-cur...ies=mrx-series

Jay

[jahjd2000]

While I don't mind the tangents into the theoretical, my primary purpose for this thread was to give some guidance into selecting a good match-up for the Sierra-2 speakers by providing viable selections. The purpose was not only for me, but also for any future users looking for the same information.

While I am not looking for an abundance of choices, recommendations remain at:
Emotiva Fusion 8100
Denon AVR-x4000

No other contenders?

*Personally, I am not in favor of products made in China which these both appear to be.

If that's the case, see if you can source a Denon 4311. It's made in Japan I believe and is a great performer.

[Kisakuku]

*Personally, I am not in favor of products made in China which these both appear to be.

You would have to up you budget a bit then and get a Denon 4520 (or the older 4311 if you can find a new one for sale).

[FirstReflect]

If the "I don't want a made in China product" stance is a political or moral thing, I can understand and respect that. But if it's an expectation of quality thing, then that is going to be much tougher to agree with.

In truth, even if the Receiver is billed as being "made in..." whatever other country, there are going to be a whole bunch of components inside that were made in China. It's just inescapable. There's no brand that is literally mining and refining all of the raw materials, and then manufacturing their own electrical components without any involvement from China at some point in the process. So if your objection is a political and/or moral one, I'm sorry to break it to you, but China's involvement in some portion of any Receiver is unavoidable.

[markie]

If the Emotiva Fusion doesn't pan out, I'm eying the slimline Marantz line, specifically the NR1604. With three year warranty its about $700.

I've heard that after the earthquake in Japan Denon moved much of its manufacturing to China.

It's encouraging though that some companies are bringing some manufacturing back to the USA, notably Apple. Even Emotiva will be assembling their upcoming high end XMC-1 processor in the USA.

Mark