Achieving much better sound could be just one component away :)

[GirgleMirt]

Personally, changing cables would be the last thing I would try to tweak a system. Some people go through cable after cable, unsatisfied, until they stumble upon one that does the trick for some reason. I accept that, even without a DBT

What is it you accepting exactly?

I can 'accept' it in the same way as I could accept someone trying 50 different ways to step through a door; one with a pancake on his head, another time the other jumping backward on one leg, or with one hand holding a sausage and his tongue out of his mouth, until he finally found the best possible way for him to do so, which is with both fingers crossed, jumping on one leg, one hand on top of his head and the other up his butt. I mean, I can accept that this is the best possible way he found to step through a door, you know, the way which gives him the best luck & reduces the risk of aliens or spirits bothering him... But it doesn't really validate the existence of aliens or spirits...

The blind test would at least confirm that he's not wasting his time and money on cables which could in the end do absolutely nothing. And again, we're talking about a cable, one of the simplest and most nondescript feature of a system. I guess it's borderline insanity... Waste so much time, energy and money on something which which might make absolutely no real difference... At least if you bothered to do a blind test and make sure there actually was an audible difference, you would show that you actually cared about it, but when you refuse to do so, well... You're pretty much in denial... I don't know I guess it's common behavior for so many of us, I just can't understand how you can fail so badly at reasoning... "I don't care about the truth I just want to hold on to my beliefs even though they might be wrong." I think they just can't entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. I think that thought is just too scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a3zXJ7biqI

[markie]

GM, I would bet that Big Red Machine would welcome a double blind test if a couple of friends took the effort to help him out with it in his house and confirm the results one way or the other. If it were me I would, both out of personal curiousity and to "tell the tale" to others who might listen. But the reality is that such tests are a pain in butt to carry out. Properly done it should be carried out over several days, to avoid listener fatigue.

Would you refuse a double blind test? I assume no. I bet almost everyone reading this post would not refuse a double blind test in his own home, among friends who were looking forward to the experiment, a great excuse to get together to eat and drink and listen. What is puzzling to me is how you come to the belief that a person would find it too 'scary' to go through with it.

I could understand a person not wanting to come to grips with certain religious questions, because it could pose a sort of perceived existential threat, but discerning differences in audio equipment, especially when one is convinced of a positive result?

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

But the reality is that such tests are a pain in butt to carry out. Properly done it should be carried out over several days, to avoid listener fatigue.

Why several days?! The best DBTs are the ones where you can switch in quick succession, so you can quickly compare between both. (aural memory isn't good enough to differentiate minute differences even if there were...) But anyway, single blind test is rather easy, and if you want it to be over a longer period of time, even simpler, just have someone change the cables without telling you which cable is which, and just try to guess.

What is puzzling to me is how you come to the belief that a person would find it too 'scary' to go through with it.

I could understand a person not wanting to come to grips with certain religious questions, because it could pose a sort of perceived existential threat, but discerning differences in audio equipment, especially when one is convinced of a positive result? Mark

Well take the example of the guy who wasted hundreds if not thousands of dollars in cables before finding the 'right' one, only to have someone say that his 7th cable, 399.99$ Nuance flat wire, doesn't sound any better than a 1.99$ Radio-Shack RCA special... All this time and money wasted... Scary!

When the audiophile first reads about cables & DBTs, a common reply is: "Dude, I heard it, and I can easily tell the difference, I'm not crazy and I'm not imagining things!". Many just won't even entertain the possibility, why could that be other than fear? Well pride also, but again if someone is worried about his pride, then it comes back to fear; fear failing the test and looking like an idiot. Or worse, fear about realizing that he did waste his time, money and energy, and that he is indeed an idiot, or at least was tricked... Well guess what, you take the hit and learn from your experience. You don't voluntarily remain ignorant & just ignore reality because of your fear and pride... 2015... With all the information available at their fingertips, it's absolutely unforgivable to be aware of the cable scam and voluntarily remain ignorant.

It always amazes me how so many function... Some vid had some woman's 7 kids sick at home because they had caught Pertussis because the woman didn't have her kids vaccinated. Anti-vaccine. Her own words: "I'm not kicking myself up for it"... WHY THE HELL NOT YOU DUMB WOMAN??!?! Your kids are sick because of your idiocy, and you're not kicking yourself? What's wrong with you?! Kick yourself hard, learn from your mistake and don't ever let something like that happen again! Hate it when people mess up and are like: "whatever..." "Not my fault.." NO! NOT WHATEVER! That was your fault!!! Look at what you did, take responsibility, and learn not to repeat it!!! The whatever... Kills me...

I think it's all the same. A lack of reason isn't limited to one subject, usually the people who believe in astrology, religion, magical cables, luck, destiny, karma, luck, ghosts, aliens, conspiracy theories, etc., are usually the same. And it's always the people who don't ask questions, don't bother think... If you ask them why they believe, their response is usually something like: "Why not? Why couldn't there be?" Their opinions aren't the result of reasoning, it's the result of an absence of reasoning. It drives me nuts. I can't understand people like that...

It's not the beliefs themselves. It's the lack of reasoning & recurring process of never validating their lack of thought. Cables... Astrology... Oh it doesn't matter right? Homeopathy... Conspiracy theories... Anti-vaccine... Supernatural beings... Then people are surprised when like 30% of USA believe in ghosts or other nonsense...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2049485.html

A HuffPost/YouGov poll shows that 45 percent of Americans believe in ghosts, or that the spirits of dead people can come back in certain places and situations.

Jesus... Not even 30%, 45%...... That's how you get a society of ignoranimus... Just never teach people to think... So sad... It's depressing. Snake oil vendors, homeopaths, evangelists, astrologists, so many ripoff artists taking advantage of people. And they're just like sheep... Gobbling all up... Depressing...

So why bother? Be it cables, religion, whatever... "Oh it' doesn't matter! It's just X! X doesn't really matter!". I believe that it is important. Not for the beliefs themselves, but because it's a slippery slope, and it can shape your entire set of beliefs. Either you're on the side of reason, or you're on the side of... Lack of reason... The senseless, thoughtless, deluded, the willfully ignorant. I guess it's the choice, do you care about the truth, or not? If you don't care, then your opinion, thoughts (or absence of) and beliefs are totally irrelevant and useless. It's mental suicide. Self-sabotage. I don't know... Incomprehensible...

[markie]

GM, hmmm, how to reply to such a rant? Well first off I don't believe that the typical 'audiophile' has his self esteem so wrapped up in a particular cable choice that he can't face the possibility that he chose badly. Why can't the typical audiophile be more like luisv, who upon learning that he couldn't tell the difference in cables, sold off his expensive cables and came away happy?

Vaccines? I can think of no better explanation for the atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now. Incredible and totally unacceptable. Autism was virtually unknown in the early twentieth century. The lady's error was she had a little bit of knowledge and generalized. The concept of vaccination is great. It's just that certain vaccines, notably the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, should be regarded as highly suspect. For instance did you know that in England, when they controlled for when MMR vaccine was delivered to children, that later injections correlated to a lower incidence of autism? Probably not. Did you know that, despite the mantra that "all vaccines are safe", the only study to directly check for this in baby primates, showed that the baby monkeys were adversely affected? Probably not.

Want a conspiracy theory? Check out Andrew Wakefield on Wiki, the English doctor who was barred from medicine for ringing the bell on the MMR vaccine. You would think he was totally evil. Then take the time to actually see the guy being interviewed on Youtube and you might come away with an entirely different impression.

Either you're on the side of reason, or you're on the side of... Lack of reason... The senseless, thoughtless, deluded, the willfully ignorant.

I suppose you think it is reasonable that a purely material universe somehow produces beings that are conscious, minded and self aware. I don't. So your idea of what is reasonable differs from mine. In my life I've learned a valuable lesson, and that is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fact that there are erroneous beliefs and fears in the human race is just a matter of course in our development. We're getting there, don't despair. Have faith.

Mark

[DougMac]

Want a conspiracy theory? Check out Andrew Wakefield on Wiki, the English doctor who was barred from medicine for ringing the bell on the MMR vaccine.Mark

No, he was barred from medicine for falsifying research. His research and the results he posted has been proven to be completely false. Exhaustive long range studies in Denmark, where there are detailed health records of every citizen, has shown there is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism.

My wife is a nurse midwife and the director of a school of nursing ranked in the top 20 in the nation by US News and World Reports. She agrees that there is no connection. She has researched this using scientific and medical journals instead of listening to a bad comedian and his bimbo Playmate wife.

[Beave]

Thank you DougMac for correcting Mark's nonsense.

I was deliberately staying out of this thread until I read his post. Is Mark just trolling us? Can anybody be that misinformed? It's baffling.

[GirgleMirt]

Doug's post++

http://www.publichealth.org/public-a...yths-debunked/

GM, hmmm, how to reply to such a rant? Well first off I don't believe that the typical 'audiophile' has his self esteem so wrapped up in a particular cable choice that he can't face the possibility that he chose badly.

Well in a sense we're both wrong and both right, both of us are generalizing here... Some did do blind tests, and pretty much every one I've seen has failed. But I'm more talking about the proverbial cable believer, the one who posts and raves about the difference of this cable vs that cable that, without ever validating his beliefs. Throughout the years, I've noticed a clear pattern, and again it's similar to religion... Where those who are into cables and believe in their huge difference & benefits, aren't really interested or maybe just can't or don't want to entertain the possibility that they might be deluded... They'd rather form a small closed knit community of people with the same beliefs, à la head-fi & DBT-free zone, where they can just hear what they want to hear and reinforce their beliefs...

Vaccines? I can think of no better explanation for the atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now.

You're probably referring to the the 1 in 68 ASD numbers reported by the CDC... An explanation for this was simply that the detection mechanism in place today are more effective than they were 20 years ago, so we are identifying more cases in children today than we were before. And also what is considered ASD today and what was considered ASD 20 years ago isn't the same...

And besides, the "I can think of no better explanation for" is a type of logical fallacy; argument from ignorance/incredulity. Maybe you can't think of a better explanation, but that doesn't make your explanation correct... Besides, do you have a background in a medical field? If not, and you're not an expert, how is your opinion on autism even relevant? Have you done extensive research on the subject?

atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now. Incredible and totally unacceptable. Autism was virtually unknown in the early twentieth century.

lol That's exactly right!

For instance did you know that in England, when they controlled for when MMR vaccine was delivered to children, that later injections correlated to a lower incidence of autism? Probably not.

So shouldn't autism be down then compared to 15 years ago?

http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/...ount/Home.html

Most anti-vaccination believers claim that the compound Thimerosal led to an increase in autism cases. The Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine is their usual target. However, Thimerosal was never used as a preservative in the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine. No vaccine licensed since 1999 has contained Thimerosal as a preservative, except a few multi-dose container vaccines such as some (but not all) HIB and Influenza vaccines. Autism has not declined since 1999, thereby disproving this connection. However, this has not stopped anti-vaccination believers from claiming that it was the MMR vaccine itself that caused autism or that it was vaccines in general that caused autism. All of these ideas have been disproven in multiple scientific and legal examinations of the evidence. The primary scientific reason for the increase in autism diagnoses is due to more disorders being included in the Autism Spectrum and doctors getting better at diagnosing the characteristics of autism.

Anyway, we're getting off topic..

I suppose you think it is reasonable that a purely material universe somehow produces beings that are conscious, minded and self aware. I don't.

Well produces... It's not like I think the universe is a factory that builds conscious self-aware individuals from a production line... And 'purely material universe' as opposed to what exactly? Like magic? The supernatural? Ouuuh.. (spooky voice) Until there's evidence that there's something other than 'material', we're kinda wasting our breath talking about it... I guess that if you consider that anything is possible, then it's possible that a magic sandwich or a pink unicorn has created the universe & life on earth, but I just don't see any reason why anyone should believe it...

So yeah, so far, abiogenesis & evolution seems like the most plausible explanation to me. Given billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars and planets, add an incomprehensible amount of time, yeah, seems highly reasonable to me that what is ridiculously unlikely to happen will happen. Again, humans have created life from non-living matter, so we know it's possible. And we've observed evolution. No evidence of the supernatural as of yet... And James Randi is looking!

But to go back to beliefs.. Belief spawns from facts and evidence no? Observation, hypothesis, testing, experimenting, etc.? Magic doesn't explain anything, if magicmandunnit, then you have to explain how he did it and where he came from; who created magicman? Can't create something from nothing right? (ahem!!) So you have an even more impossible problem on your hands, since you know, we have an observable universe, but no magicman or even any evidence of magicman to study... And the original question; where does the universe come from, isn't answered at all... Religion answers nothing. Lighting? God... Rain? God... Sun? God... Life? God... Death? God... Stars? God... Fire? God.. It's not an explanation...

So your idea of what is reasonable differs from mine.

Well you say you don't think it's reasonable... As I said, it's not the belief that's important, it's the reasoning behind it. Can you explain then why you don't think it's reasonable? What is unreasonable about it? What would be the alternative? What is reasonable according to you, and most importantly, why?

[markie]

I'll make it short. No, Andrew Wakefield did not falsify evidence. Again, watch the man himself on YouTube and listen to his story instead of reading Wikipedia.

The study in Denmark. Perhaps, perhaps, there is something rotten in the state of Denmark. I say this because (as I assume you know) the guy (Thorsen) who led that study was indicted on many cases of fraud and money laundering, over a million dollars, involving the CDC. So frankly I don't trust him and would welcome another study, and one independent of the CDC. The CDC is way too cozy with the pharmaceutical / vaccine industry. For instance a director of the CDC left to become president of Merck's vaccine division.

Read carefully: I'm not being dogmatic that there is a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism, I'm saying it looks like that to me, and warrants further study, rather than receiving the reflex dismissal it does.

That's really all I want to say on the matter.

Regarding mind arising from a purely material universe. It isn't reasonable to me because there is no apparent reason for mere physical laws to arrange matter, through evolution, into living things, let alone self conscious beings like ourselves who are able to even ponder our origin and destiny.

It is more reasonable to me that the universe was minded to begin with, and minded beings like ourselves are manifestations of that. If material energy can be accepted to be simply 'there' at the 'beginning', why not mind as well?

And if mind is there at the beginning, it would follow that meaning and purpose are intrinsic in the universe as well. Material law has nothing to say for those qualities. And when matter and mind co-mingle very interesting things happen, like evolution with 'direction', leading to beings like ourselves. Ascend indeed.

That's all I will say on the subject, this is after all a forum on speakers and such! Cheers.

Mark

[DougMac]

Thank you DougMac for correcting Mark's nonsense.

I was deliberately staying out of this thread until I read his post. Is Mark just trolling us? Can anybody be that misinformed? It's baffling.

This is a product site about some fine speakers. I'm sure everyone that posts here are fans. I was surprised when I opened this thread to see it had gotten so far afield. I was going to stay out as well, but when I saw such blatant information on a subject of which I'm familiar and that is of practical interest to my wife, I had to respond. I immediately had second thoughts, not because of any doubts regarding the information in my post, but based on my furthering a conversation that frankly doesn't belong here.

I suggest Curtis or Dave clean up this thread, removing any posts not related to audio. Actually, I think the forum would be better off without this and other navel gazing threads. If you want to discuss philosophy and misinformation, go to Cheers, order a beer and sit down with Cliff.

[curtis]

I haven't had to delete or modify a thread in a LONG time....a testament to the type of people we have in the forum.

So long in fact, I can't remember my moderator login and password.

Let's consider this a dead thread.