Achieving much better sound could be just one component away :)

[bkdc]

Guitarists prefer tubes because of their overdrive behavior. Tubes soft clip when overdriven, as opposed to SS which hard clips. The result is two very different, and very easy to hear, types of distortion. How a guitar distorts plays a big part of the sound the player is looking to achieve.

The answer is to get a more powerful solid state amplifier. Unless the guitarist wants to hear tube distortion from an overdriven tube amp. The caveat when it comes to amps has been stated and restated --- the comparison of amps occurs when an amplifier is driven well within its specified limitations of power. Anyone who complains about amplifier distortion as a reason for preferring a tube amp really should reframe his mindset. That's like complaining complaining about your Honda's Civic's performance as you drive to drive it on the racetrack. The answer is to get an amplifier that can handle what you throw at it.

All arguments go out the door if someone is intentionally trying to achieve the sound of tube amplifier distortion.

[davef]

The guy is hallucinating. Identical digital data is being passed from each hard drive to his DAC.

People seem to forget that the only information being passed from the hard drive is either a zero or a one. (off or on). The only possible way two different hard drives can "sound" different from one another is if one is experiencing read errors or if the source file contained on one is different from the source on the other one.

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

[GirgleMirt]

Referring to anyone as foolish and snobbish for enjoying and preferring the vinyl format to digital is itself a rather snobbish statement (just as any person who prefers vinyl looking down on a person who is all digital is snobbish).

Is it really? There's as much vinyl fanboys as there are Apple, ****, Monster and other garbage. I've literally heard people scuff and walk out of audio rooms because there wasn't a turntable in a 50000$ system... Yet the same people had no issue listening to an very old and worn vinyl with ample artifacts. It's mental. It's like scoffing at a model with a pimple, then gushing over another with smallpox.

https://youtu.be/v9JQsXPd41U?t=1m30s

I'd bet a thousand bucks that in a DBT test, a listener couldn't tell the difference between the same mix played on a vinyl pressing vs a WAV file with added snaps/crackles/pops & EQ'd as to match the vinyl+turntable FR aberrations.

The quoted statement above does not take into account 'mastering' differences between different versions of albums (the same mix, but different mastering and possibly different source tapes were used if it was originally an analog recording).

Of course it doesn't... What is of interest is the actual quality of the medium; vinyl vs cd. There's no contention that the actual content of a medium might differ, but it's besides the point when considering the actual quality of the medium. Which is the entire point here. My contention is that most who praise vinyl for its superior audio qualities vs CDs are deluded, and that if you added snaps crackles and pops, messed with the FR, added distortion all the other negatives of vinyls to cd quality sound, only a minority, if even that, could tell the difference.

I have absolutely no issue with someone who says that he enjoys vinyl, and if it's because of better mixes, hard to find or non-available recordings, etc., I am 100% for it. My issue arises when people claim that it's better than cd. Better how? "It sounds better"... Oh really?

I have a vast collection of both vinyl and digital music (CDs, SACDs, DVD-As, BDs, and some downloads). I do not think vinyl is superior to digital or vice versa, but I do have many albums where the best mastering is the vinyl version. In these cases, the vinyl versions typically are not nearly as compressed as the CD or other digital versions. The statement about adding EQ to a digital version to match the vinyl and adding 'crackles and pops' would not account for any dynamic range compression differences. Those can't be undone.

Of course, and the opposite is true too. If you have a worse recording/mastering/mixing on a vinyl than you have on a CD, the CD will clearly sound better. But that's beside the point of the actual medium. A vinyl degrades with each play. What is the % of pristine records in your average vinyl collection? It usually takes less than 1 second to differentiate a vinyl from a cd because of all the noise & artifacts of a vinyl... It's not a subtle difference...

Sure, if you have a 10000$ turntable, it doesn't damage the vinyl as much as if you have a normal turntable, and it doesn't sound as bad as a 500$ turntable, yadda yadda... Point is a 100$ Sony cd player can play the same CD 500 times and it'll sound exactly the same as on the 1st play... And the 100$ cd player will sound cleaner than vinyl... And seriously, if the source; the vinyl, isn't pristine, wtf is the point of the high end turntable? It's like getting the RAAL towers and using this + radio as a source...

Seriously, how can some argue that vinyl is superior to cd? It's ridiculous...

[bkdc]

Seriously, how can some argue that vinyl is superior to cd? It's ridiculous...

Amen. You can certainly 'prefer' the sound of vinyl, but the digital CD played is closer to the original master than the vinyl played even on the best quality phonograph. The sound quality degradation from analog playback exceeds any issues with sound degradation from aliasing due to digital sample rate.

Digital reproduces sound with less distortion and degradation than analog. Period. I'll take 0's and 1's over the vinyl any day, please.

[GirgleMirt]

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

Actually, I don't think it's even possible given error detection and correction... Ok, maybe not impossible, the odds are so low vs considering the alternative; someone imagining it, that it's not even worth considering!

Anyone who complains about amplifier distortion as a reason for preferring a tube amp really should reframe his mindset. That's like complaining complaining about your Honda's Civic's performance as you drive to drive it on the racetrack. The answer is to get an amplifier that can handle what you throw at it.

This. Or, it's like complaining that the speeding ticket you can get with a Ferrari is much worse than the speeding ticket you can get in your Civic... Hence, a Honda is a much better sports car than a Ferrari. What is unarguable, for the price/performance ratio of tubes/ss, ss gives you amply more power at a fraction of the price. So for pretty much any reasonably priced amplifier, you'll reach distortion & clipping MUCH sooner with tubes than SS, and watt for watt, tubes will distort significantly more... Point is when your tubes are clipping & distorting significantly, basically any similarly priced SS will be playing effortlessly @ < 0.05% THD...

And as I stated earlier, if distortion is somehow beneficial, why not do it via emulation? I'm sure most couldn't tell the difference between a SS with emulated tube distortion vs a real distorting tube amplifier... And that way you don't have to contend with primitive tube technology & all it's drawbacks...

Shit I need to do it one day. Blind test. System A: CD + SS vs System B, the same CD + SS except with vinyl noise & artifact emulation + tube emulation. Then bring in the tube & vinyl crowd so they can rave on how much better system B sounds vs system A...

[markie]

People seem to forget that the only information being passed from the hard drive is either a zero or a one. (off or on). The only possible way two different hard drives can "sound" different from one another is if one is experiencing read errors or if the source file contained on one is different from the source on the other one.

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.

http://www.amazon.com/MiniPro-eSATA-...+ssd+enclosure

The results were intriguing, and clearly confirmed the importance of power supply quality to sound.

First, the external DC power supplies were consistently the worst. I had 2 different wall warts to try, with same specs. Both provided the most closed sound, with the least air and the most "edge" to the extreme highs. Same consistent results whether plugged in to conditioner, wall, same AC circuit or separate. I believe these are cheaply made power supplies, likely spitting out plenty of noise/hash.

Second, USB Bus power from the BDP. Better for sure. Interestingly, there were subtle differences between different usb cables, which was surprising for a non-streaming setup. Probably all about noise.

Third, power from e-sata cable, with signal thru USB. Punchier, much better bass. This was the best external setup, until...

Fourth, internalized SSD powered via sata. That's where I am today. Great all around sound, and no worries about extra power cables and usb cables hanging around and jiggling loose. Sonically and aesthetically the best setup for me.

[bkdc]

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.

Although it is possible to get noise from an analog circuit (like through an amplifier) through ground loops and EMI, the power supply argument is really a horrible argument. You're talking about the transfer of digital data. You're still talking bout 0's and 1's. Other than read errors, there is no "noise". Yes, USB cables can transmit EMI, but if the digital data were being constantly corrupted, you would find that checksums for data files transferred over USB cables would consistently result in corrupted files. You and I both know that USB cables copy/transfer data reliably, and files do not regularly get corrupted even over the cheapest USB cables. Think of all those megabytes or gigabytes of data, none of which contain mistakes. You would have to argue that these are regularly transmitting mistaken 0's versus 1's. That just isn't the case.

The argument being made is that this noisy electrical device is now transmitting EMI to the digital audio converter -> amplifier -> speaker chain. BULLCROCK. Firstly, a decent DAC and amplifier will protect against this phantom suspected EMI noise. And even if you did suffer from a problem, what you would hear is background hiss at very low levels, but the quality of the music would otherwise be unaltered. Nothing would sound punchier or smoother or more metallic, etc. You are talking about audiophiles who claim to hear differences when no differences exist. The fallibility of the person's memory of sound quality is the most likely explanation here. These people who claim to hear differences between two amplifiers but would easily fail a blinded test .... these people who overestimate their ability to discern indiscernable differences. They describe two high quality amplifiers as metallic or punchy or harsh or warm or smooth when there is absolutely no processing or EQ involved other than an attempt at clean amplification. It defies logic. And that's what it is. Illogical.

[Beave]

+1. Stop reading the nonsense on whatever forum that is.

[markie]

To bkdc: Thank you, Mr. Spock.

To Beave: It was from AudioCircle. I'm naturally a curious person so things like this actually prompt me to read more. So, for instance, I just came across the article below from another site which describes a similar situation. It raises more questions than it answers, but guys like me find it - as Mr. Spock might put it - fascinating. (Either from a technical or psychological standpoint!)

Mark

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hificri...to_storage.htm

[GirgleMirt]

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.

http://www.amazon.com/MiniPro-eSATA-...+ssd+enclosure

The results were intriguing, and clearly confirmed the importance of power supply quality to sound.

First, the external DC power supplies were consistently the worst. I had 2 different wall warts to try, with same specs. Both provided the most closed sound, with the least air and the most "edge" to the extreme highs. Same consistent results whether plugged in to conditioner, wall, same AC circuit or separate. I believe these are cheaply made power supplies, likely spitting out plenty of noise/hash.

Second, USB Bus power from the BDP. Better for sure. Interestingly, there were subtle differences between different usb cables, which was surprising for a non-streaming setup. Probably all about noise.

Third, power from e-sata cable, with signal thru USB. Punchier, much better bass. This was the best external setup, until...

Fourth, internalized SSD powered via sata. That's where I am today. Great all around sound, and no worries about extra power cables and usb cables hanging around and jiggling loose. Sonically and aesthetically the best setup for me.

Or... And this is just a possibility... But maybe... He's just imagining it. Occam's razor. Sure, it's possible that highly advanced alien life has traveled billions of light years to abduct us and stick their fingers up our asses, but odds are it's just some dumb redneck making shit up.

Anyway, that's why blind tests exist. But just going with some of the guy's descriptions, without having taken the time to read it seriously, sounds like bullshit to me. If there was really an issue, simple, turn your volume to max, do you hear some noise? No? There's no issue with the god damn power supply.

there were subtle differences between different usb cables

God damnit I wasted energy trying to read it seriously...

And wasting more time on the article:

"Fellow computer audio enthusiast (and Naim PR person) Stephen Harris and I launched into some preliminary listening tests, to establish under reasonably controlled conditions if audible, repeatable differences could really be heard. "

If I remember correctly, this is one of the stupid companies selling an amplifier sized iPod for 5000$... Or was it 25000$?

We readily confirmed that the final sound quality is influenced not only by the choice of network player, DAC, digital cables, or indeed many other long-recognized factors, but additionally — and quite markedly — by the manner in which we now store large quantities of our music at home.

Jesus christ... Not to sound harsh, but reading that article, it's painful, and I can't help but see those testers as the two guys from dumb & dumber. There's just a sort of magic which happens when you put two idiots in a room and let them do their thing. How exactly did they "readily confirm" all of those things? Let me guess, a sighted test? Because double blind tests don't work? Yeah of course, a search of 'blind' in the page resulted in no match. What was I thinking... Blind test.. Sheesh..

In our initial listening tests, I couldn't discern any tangible difference in sound between the two hard drives. Harris thought the Hitachi sounded very ethereal, almost out of phase, and rated it lowest; the Seagate was sharper with a more thumpy bass, slightly brighter with a slight tendency to sibilance. Both lacked much drive in presenting the Madonna track, and were certainly 'mushy' compared with the best sound quality we'd heard from the QNAP stable.

Drive three (a solid state type) gave a far from subtle shift in tone and soundstaging. I thought that here this Kingston SSD spread the stage wider, could really pull apart the multi-track layers, and certainly led in blackness too, sounding agreeably quieter than it had any right to. Yet there was also a dull flatness to its presentation, even a graying of timbre.

If the Kingston SSD stood apart from the disk drives for its mostly good yet quite alien character, drive four made itself known for entirely the wrong reasons. This Corsair drive (another SSD) conspicuously highlighted vocal sibilants, and had a hard, relentless quality that was impossible to miss. Strangely, it also robbed the music of pace; it was the least engaging on any emotional level thanks to an enveloping tunelessness that appeared to carve up a song like an MP3 rip.

Seriously... *censored*

It's amazing really. The world of audio... Amazing... 2015... The **** hardrive that holds the mp3, with an external dac, it affects the sound... "Yeah I know, I heard it with my own ears..." THE NUANCES... "no we didn't do a blind test..." Amazing... Just... Amazing... The ***** hard drive, it ***** "robbed the music of pace"... And the USB cable! The 0s and 1s.. Works for EVERYTHING ELSE, except for audiophiles and their music... **** digital USB cables need TUBES, or a friggin turntable... Maybe CRYO the HD. Yeah complain about the *** **** DIGITAL CABLE, because a ****** needle running through a crease in a plastic disk is more accurate. And they'd call ME deranged and lock me up after I'd strangle them both on the spot...