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Thread: Can't make a decision to save my life........

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonindenver View Post
    I would buy the best speaker I could afford with the RAAL right away. The RAAL is worth every penny for the type of music you listen to.

    The new Sierra 2 is an exciting option because you would have a fantastic speaker right away. You could later add a sub as funds allow and reach the sound quality of the towers.

    As far as stands, I have used everything from bookcases to plant stands before shelling out for a set of $400 stands for some B&W 602s. Honestly, I could not tell the difference from the plant stands (cut down to the correct level and weighted of course) from a set of dedicated speaker stands.

    I have the towers with the RAALs and love them.
    Dave has stated that the new Sierra-2s are the best 2-way speakers he's heard, but he has also stated that the mids perform somewhere between the Sierra-1s and the Towers. It's important to remember that the dedicated, sealed mid, and dedicated bass drivers (2 per Tower) still outperform the two way designs, both in detail, and dynamics.

    The Sierra-2 is undoubtedly an exciting new design for Ascend, but realistically, as a 2-way design, it's still not going to be able to match the Tower/Horizon for sound quality. Since a sub is usually crossed over at about 60 to 80 Hz, the bass region of the Towers will also exceed the bookshelves down to the point where the sub is crossed.

    If one were to compare the standard Tower with the new Sierra-2, the only area it would be equal to (or in all likelihood better) would be above the crossover point of the tweeter (somewhere close to 3kHz). I dare not even try to speculate which would better appeal to a listener, it could well be a matter of individual taste. Since the Sierra-2 is currently not available to the public, performance deltas are purely speculation.

    The Tower would still be my choice, particularly if a sub was not to be implemented in the system. Add in the RAALs, it's a no brainer IMHO (budget, and placement considerations allowing of course).

    Jay

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Jay, that's a fair assessment and a good point. One thing is for sure: we all agree that if the OP can afford the Sierra Towers RAAL, that is the best possible choice! It just also happens to be the most expensive

    Choosing between the Sierra-2 and the standard Sierra Towers is a tricky thing, indeed. Now that we know the Sierra-2 can be had for a mere $1448, it creates an even more interesting dilemma when price is a factor. It also makes the Sierra Towers RAAL a very substantial step up in price.

    There's often a lot of talk and emphasis on bass extension. I understand the intuitive appeal, but I must stress the importance of recognizing that the bass you end up hearing is not just what comes out of the speakers; it is the combination of what comes out of the speakers plus the room's acoustics.

    I now have the perfect example in my own setup:

    If I were to take my custom "skinny" Sierra Horizon RAAL Centre outside, and listen to some bass sweeps, it would play nice and linearly right down to 40-45Hz or so. All on its own, that's what it can output. But in my actual theatre room, I must position the speaker where it makes sense to put the Centre channel, which is more or less centered in the room width-wise, and directly below my television. I've then angled it upwards a bit so that it is aiming at my face when I'm seated.

    So, intuitively, we might think we'd want to set a 40 or 50Hz crossover, since that is where the speaker itself naturally starts to roll off. But a funny thing happens if I play a bass sweep through my Centre speaker: the sweep is nice and linear down to 80Hz, then it quickly rolls off until it's basically silent at 70Hz, then it gets louder again until it's pretty much back to linear from about 60Hz down to 40Hz, and then it rolls off again.

    So, there's simply some sound wave cancellation going on, centered at about 70Hz. The combination of the room's dimensions, the exact placement of the speaker within the room, and the placement if my seat relative to the speaker, they all combine to produce a bass response that is not even and linear, even though the speaker itself is outputting linear, accurate sound.

    To combat this, I have a pair of SVSound PC13-Ultra subs positioned at the mid-points of both side walls. That placement, combined with a bit of fine tuning EQ courtesy of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + SubEQ HT gives me incredibly linear, uniform bass across my full seating area (which is just a futon at the moment that can fit maybe 3 people at most ).

    If I just run the Audyssey auto-setup program, my Receiver sets the Centre speaker crossover to 40Hz. If I leave it there and try playing a bass sweep through the Centre speaker, even with my subwoofers now active, I still get that bass suck out between 80 and 60Hz. So, I manually set the crossover for my Centre speaker to 80Hz, and the results are darn near magical! You would never believe, just looking at my theatre and seeing how physically close both subwoofers are to the seat, that the bass would sound seamless and non-localizable. But I promise you, it really, truly does. Not so if just the Centre speaker alone is playing. Not so if I only use one subwoofer. It is the combination of speaker, dual subwoofers, and room acoustics all working together to create a truly convincing illusion that the Centre channel is just effortlessly playing down to below 20Hz, and somehow sounds uniform at all positions on my futon.

    My Front Left & Right main speakers do not produce the same, obvious suck out. But, being that they are physically closer to the corners of my room, they do produce a slightly uneven low end, with a fair bit of a hump down around 50Hz. I could just use an EQ to tame that hump, but I chose to manually set my crossover to 60Hz for those channels. And my reason is simple - the unevenness of the low end from my Front Main speakers is not uniform across the entire seating area. The prime seat in the middle gets a 50Hz hump. But the two outer seating positions get less of a single hump, and more of a bit of up and down fluctuation below 60Hz. My pair of subwoofers, on the other hand, produce unbelievably uniform bass across the full seating area. So, once again, by manually selecting a 60Hz crossover for the Front Mains (as opposed to the 40Hz chosen by my auto-setup program), I get the illusion that my Front Main speakers just effortlessly play down to below 20Hz, and do so very uniformly at any seating location on my futon.

    My point in all of this is that extended deep bass response from the speakers themselves is not necessarily very useful. I completely understand the intuitive desire for it, but in a real room, the results might not be what you expect or hope for. In fact, they very likely will not be. When it comes to deep bass, you must always account for the room's acoustics, and what effect they will have on the bass you actually end up hearing across your entire seating area. You cannot place your speakers in the ideal locations for deep bass. You have to place your speakers in the proper locations for good imaging and soundstage, hopefully following the Dolby, DTS, THX & Audyssey speaker placement guidelines as closely as possible.

    So, since we now know the Sierra-2 are so inexpensive (relatively speaking, of course. They really ought to be priced at $2700/pair wholesale. That would be the industry norm), we have to consider the fact that you could purchase a pair of Sierra-2 plus a pair of $550 ea. subwoofers, and still pay the same or less as a pair of Sierra Towers RAAL on their own. The pair of $550 subwoofers - assuming you can place them ideally - can provide deeper, more uniform, more linear bass than the Sierra Towers RAAL. With the shockingly good results I've managed to achieve in my setup, that is an extremely compelling option, IMO!

    Now, Jay, you're absolutely correct that the Towers still might hold an edge in midrange performance. And, of course, as much as we talk about bass and treble, nothing is more important than the midrange! But here's the conundrum:

    Sierra-2 plus a pair of $550-ish ea. subwoofers can provide better bass than the Towers, midrange that's maybe not quite as good as the Towers, but better than the Sierra-1s (which are no slouch in the midrange, let's not forget!), and better treble than the NrT tweeter.

    Of course, the standard towers are only $500 more per pair than the Sierra-2. So if that's your price comparison, then the dual subwoofer configuration goes out the window. That said, while they don't dig right down to 20Hz, a pair of HSU STF-2 subs could be had for only about $700, and those could still play lower, and more uniformly than the Towers on their own.

    The Towers still have the out and out advantage in sheer dynamic and peak loudness capabilities. But Dave has said the Sierra-2 are cleanly hitting 108dB from 10-12 feet away, so sheer loudness shouldn't be a problem for them unless you're very far away.

    Obviously, Sierra Towers RAAL AND dual subwoofers take the cake! But I have to say, if it were my money, I think I'd opt for Sierra-2 plus a pair of good subwoofers - even just the HSU STF-2s - over the Sierra Towers on their own. Better real world bass, plus that RAAL ribbon tweeter. Could the Tower midrange be even better? Sure. But you've heard the Sierra-1's midrange. That's certainly still very good. And the Sierra-2, according to Dave, are even better than that! So outside of a direct A-B comparison, I seriously doubt you'd hear the Sierra-2's midrange and think that anything is lacking

    My (several) two cents, anyhow

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Rob, as usual you make compelling discussion, and some good points. Everyone's situation is unique, and therefore needs are also unique.

    Consider all of the variables, from budget, to room size/acoustics, to equipment acceptance by the significant other, and system usage. Big subs for instance are not accepted by many style conscientious wives. Some will not be willing to forego the floor space required of the Towers, opting instead to place bookshelf speakers on a table, or entertainment cabinet. As I've said, I believe it may well boil down to personal taste, or factors unrelated to ultimate performance. Not all people are as uncompromising in regards to system performance as you are (ya think???LOL).

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    You guys have given me a lot to think about. I would LOVE to have a speaker with a ribbon tweeter, so it will either be the Sierra-2 or the Towers with the RAAL. That's 1498 (plus stands) vs 2598. If I stick to my plans and make this the last set of speakers I EVER buy, I know I should go with the RAAL Tower.

    I will keep you posted.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Quote Originally Posted by petmotel View Post
    Rob, as usual you make compelling discussion, and some good points.
    That's for sure! Excellent points Rob, I learn much from your contributions!
    Mark

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Not sure if anyone mentioned it but if you go with a bookshelf subwoofer combo, for music, a sealed sub might be better than a ported one because people say it's less boomy. I'm sure, like everything else in this hobby, there is a healthy debate on the subject. In the OP, I just saw mention of music and not home theater.

    I have a Sierra-1 NRT + HSU combo for music only. Hope to upgrade to the Sierra-2 in the very near future. I actually got a pair of Harbeth P3SER to upgrade the midrange from the Sierra NRT. When I got them home, they sounded small compared to the Sierra NRT and the difference in the mid range was not enough to justify the large premium. I returned them the next day. Taught me a good lesson and made me appreciate how good the Sierra's really are.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Thanks, guys

    I do hope no one takes what I wrote the wrong way. If anyone were to opt for the standard Towers over the Sierra-2 plus a pair of subwoofers combo, I certainly wouldn't hold that decision against them! Maybe you just like the looks better, or, as has been suggested, they'd be easier to place in the room, or dual subs are just flat out a no-go; there are plenty of good reasons why the standard Towers, all on their own, might make more sense and be the better choice for someone.

    I just jumped in, though, because I so often see deeper bass extension brought up as a big plus for going with towers. That's just in general. From my end, I've known all the theory, and talked at length about room acoustics and dual subs and all that; but I have to say, I was (and still am) absolutely shocked at the real world results that I've experienced now in my theatre. It's one thing to read and talk about the theory of it all. It's quite another to actually put it into practice!

    Truthfully, I wrote so much because I still can't get over how, if I'm sitting to one side of my futon, I have a subwoofer right there beside me. Like, it's maybe a foot and a half away. I can literally reach out my arm and touch it. And yet I truly cannot localize that subwoofer by ear, and the blend between the bass coming from the subwoofers and ANY of my 11 speakers is just seamless and perfect. It's mind-blowing, and I just can't get over it And yet, if I turn off one of my two subwoofers, suddenly I can easily localize the one remaining sub, and the bass response from seat to seat goes all over the place - completely non-uniform.

    So the point about not always being able to ideally position even one subwoofer, let alone a pair of subs, that is most definitely a valid concern! I totally get that most people cant get away with putting two gigantic cylinder subs in their home theatre But it's much more about having two ideally placed subs than it is about the size of each subwoofer. There are some truly small, compact, and very good-looking subwoofers out there!

    To Erik's point: it's not quite as cut and dry as sealed vs. ported. I would easily put my PC13-Ultra subs (in ported mode), or any of the Rythmik ported subs up against many of the sealed subwoofers out there and be very confident that those particular ported subs would outperform much of the sealed competition in every single metric possible.

    But it has been shown that if you take the exact same driver and amp, and the only change you make is to put them in a ported box, and then compare them to their performance in a sealed box, that, generally speaking, the sealed configuration will have less group delay, faster transient response, and typically a 12dB/octave roll off starting up around 40-50Hz or so; whereas, the ported configuration will have a higher maximum SPL output level, play linearly down to a lower frequency, but then have a rather steep 24dB/octave roll off, plus more group delay and slower transient response. If you push the sealed configuration really hard in order to try and equal the same loudness of output, you tend to get higher distortion, just dB for dB vs. the ported configuration, too.

    So, yes, generally there are trade-offs in ported vs. sealed subs. But a really great sub is a really great sub. There are sealed subs, like the JL Audio offerings for example, that can play lower, louder, and with less distortion than a lot of ported subs. And there are ported subs that can play with faster transient response and less group delay than a lot of sealed subs. So it does end up being a matter of quality and design in the end.

    Putting it all together, you could keep the price very reasonable, maybe not dig right down to 20Hz, but have some VERY small subs with something like the SVSound SB-1000. That sub is a tiny 13" cube, weighs less than 30lbs each, and you can get a pair of them (shipping included) for $950! Piano black ups the price to $1100 for a pair, but that's still in line with what I talked about before. And those subs are so small, they can be placed just about anywhere, and the "decorating committee" should have far less of a problem with them

    Anyways, my point was/is simply that, now that I've really heard it in action, I can't stop raving about the darn near magical results of having a pair of ideally placed subwoofers handling the bass. The Towers are awesome, don't get me wrong. But you have to place them where Front Main speakers go, and they do not always play the same bass at the same time; sometimes the bass for each speaker channel is independent. So I just want folks to be aware is all

    A pair of Sierra-2 plus a pair of tiny 13" cube subs - perhaps all in a gorgeous piano gloss black finish? Plenty of folks might actually find that combo easier to place in their room than a pair of towers. And if they also cost less AND actually produce better bass? Well that's worth consideration, at least. I think so, anyway

    I just want everyone to have a pair of great subwoofers, and hear the results for themselves! Heck, that makes me a humanitarian, doesn't it? haha. We all deserve such glorious bass in our lives.


  8. #18
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Not sure if anyone mentioned it but if you go with a bookshelf subwoofer combo, for music, a sealed sub might be better than a ported one because people say it's less boomy. I'm sure, like everything else in this hobby, there is a healthy debate on the subject. In the OP, I just saw mention of music and not home theater.

    I have a Sierra-1 NRT + HSU combo for music only. Hope to upgrade to the Sierra-2 in the very near future. I actually got a pair of Harbeth P3SER to upgrade the midrange from the Sierra NRT. When I got them home, they sounded small compared to the Sierra NRT and the difference in the mid range was not enough to justify the large premium. I returned them the next day. Taught me a good lesson and made me appreciate how good the Sierra's really are.
    I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    That is true, setting up the sub can be room dependent. My sub is about 3ft from the speakers and I sit about 9ft away and the sound is good, not boomy at all. But if I go into my pantry on the other side of the room about 30ft from the sub the sound is boomy. It's real strange.

    I also had to use the SPL meter with an iPhone to get the sub to play at the same SPL as the speakers b/c I have a 2 channel amp not a receiver that can do this automatically. Getting the sound right is definitely not plug and play.
    Last edited by Erik; 11-21-2013 at 02:20 AM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Can't make a decision to save my life........

    Quote Originally Posted by RRT-NPS View Post
    I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.
    I've owned boomy subwoofers but I've never heard a Rythmik, for example, described as boomy. If the bass is exaggerated than it's turned up too high. I have a 15" sealed Rythmik and I think it sounds great and blends seamlessly. If anything, IMO, the bass is so clean and tight that it's unimpressive for casual listeners that are expecting to be shaken by everything. You might enjoy this review http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...hmik_f12se.htm
    On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with going without a sub either if you are not worried about hearing and feeling that lowest octave.
    Nate

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