Audio-fool needs help from audiophiles

[mapmn006]

Im interested in buying the towers within a month. I've never owned home speakers before. I will only have the two speakers and will not go beyond 2.1 (a 15" Rhythmik is only a maybe, and it would be way down the road). I have a 50" plasma, a cable box, and apple TV. I use an apple airport express for my wi-fi. All my music is on my Macbook with iTunes. I was wondering should i get an AV receiver or separates? Im still confused on what i would need if i get separates. Do i just need a preamp and an amp? Will i need a tuner and DAC? Seems easier to get AV receiver but which one? Would separates be higher quality with more power and better for 2.0(2.1)? I'm not into home theater and speakers will be for music and sports on TV (UFC). I'm comfortable spending $1,100 USD or so. Specific models would be very helpful. I just registered and this is my first post. Thanks for taking the time to help/educate me.

[jollo]

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[FirstReflect]

Hi, mapmn006! Welcome to the forum

First up, congrats on choosing the Sierra Towers as your first home speakers! Man oh man, you are going to be blown away by their sound quality! I'd venture to say that most people sort of "work their way up" to speakers as good as the Sierra Towers. To start with those right off the bat? You're in VERY good shape

Second, I'm going to make the argument that an AV Receiver is your best choice. Now, I understand that you only ever plan to use two speakers, with the possibility of adding a subwoofer in the future. I would certainly highly recommend that you DO add a subwoofer. In fact, I would highly recommend that you add TWO subwoofers! But that is down the road. My point is that I understand that it might seem like a "waste" to buy an AV Receiver that can power 5 or 7 speakers, but I assure you that it is not. And here are a bunch of reasons why...

a) Very few 2-channel Integrated Amps or Processors include HDMI inputs. You've mentioned that you have a cable box and an AppleTV. So you already have at least two HDMI sources. And I imagine you might also have a Blu-ray player, or a videogame console or two, or you might want to add another streaming set-top box like a Roku, or maybe you'll want to add an HTPC. My point is that HDMI is a useful connection option. And it's convenient to be able to plug all of your sources into your AV Receiver using HDMI, and then have just a single HDMI cable that goes from the AV Receiver to your TV. That let's you easily switch between all of your sources using the AV Receiver, and the TV never needs to switch inputs ever again!

b) At some point, the audio needs to be converted from a digital signal into an analogue signal. The question is simply: where do you want this Digital-to-Analogue conversion to take place?

Some 2-channel Integrated Amps and Processors are strictly analogue. This means that you either have to send out an analogue signal from your sources (which, on things like your cable box, is often a pretty low quality signal. Or, on things like your Apple TV, is not even possible!) Or you have to send the digital audio from your source device into a separate DAC, and then from the DAC into your analogue 2-channel Integrated Amp. That is needlessly complicated and expensive.

Several 2-channel Integrated amps and Processors do offer digital inputs. But they typically only have 2 or 3. Two optical and one coax digital - or something along those lines. So you can quickly run out of available inputs if you ever have more than just 2 or 3 source devices.

Once again, an AV Receiver is often more convenient. You can use HDMI to keep the audio digital until it gets into the AV Receiver, where the AV Receiver will handle the Digital-to-Analogue conversion. And AV Receivers typically have many more inputs than 2-channel Integrated Amps or Processors.

c) You need to consider bass management. If and when you add one or two subwoofers, you are going to need a crossover. The crossover filters out most of the low bass from the speakers and sends it to the subwoofer(s). And the crossover also filters out most of the higher frequencies from the subwoofer, and sends them to only the speakers.

Some 2-channel Integrated Amps and Processors offer bass management and subwoofer outputs. But many do not. On the other hand, pretty much all AV Receivers offer bass management and dedicated subwoofer outputs.

d) Then there is decoding. Any source device can output a straight 2-channel stereo signal. But sometimes, it is nice to be able to send the 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound from the source to your AV Receiver, and then have the AV Receiver decode that surround sound, and downmix it to 2-channel stereo. The reason it's nice to be able to do this is because many AV Receivers include listening modes that can create a fairly convincing surround sound effect using only 2 speakers. I also like to be able to see on the front panel of my AV Receiver that it is receiving, say, the full quality Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio signal from a Blu-ray player or an HTPC. These sorts of things are not necessary, but I just personally like to have them available to me as options It's just comforting to be able to visually see that your AV Receiver is being sent the full quality audio signal - exactly as it is on the disc, or coming over your cable TV lines, or being sent by the internet feed. When you are limited to only ever sending 2-channel out of your devices, technically, they should be converting the audio in the source properly, but there is no easy, visual way to tell that you're really getting the full quality audio. With an AV Receiver, it's right there on your front panel, or on screen when you push the info button. I just think that's nice

e) There's also auto-setup and room correction. Very few 2-channel (in fact, I can't think of a single one off the top of my head) offer auto setup and room correction, such as Audyssey, or YPAO, or MCACC. Auto setup and room correction can be a bit of a contentious issue. Some people swear by it. Some people hate it and never ever use it!

Personally, I view room correction programs as a "cherry on top". In my experience, nothing can compensate for first buying good speakers, then positioning and setting them up properly, then making sure that your room is a good acoustic environment - with your seats in a good location, and the walls, ceiling and floor treated with materials and objects to tame any acoustic problems with the room itself. So-called "room correction" programs cannot ever replace those steps! But once you have all of those things taken care of, in my experience, a good room correction EQ program can be the "cherry on top" that handles any remaining little problems with your acoustics. And this is especially true in the deep bass, I've found, where room acoustics play a very, very big role, and it can be very, very difficult to make the bass smooth, and even, and accurate without any help from an EQ or other filters.

Bottom line is that any AV Receiver I would recommend will include an auto EQ program - particularly one that is effective in EQ'ing the deep bass. That is where you need EQ the most. And I can't think of any 2-channel Integrated Amps or Processors that offer it built in. So that's a BIG reason to go with an AV Receiver, IMO

f) Finally, I think it makes sense to consider price, and having options for future expansion of your system. Frankly, many, many more AV Receivers are sold than dedicated 2-channel equipment. And, as a result, the price points on very, very good AV Receivers is lower. I've seen some people make the claim that, because AV Receivers do so much, they MUST sound inferior to dedicated 2-channel gear that costs more. Simply put, that is not true. And I can only guess that people who make that claim have never made an honest listening comparison between any of the better quality AV Receivers, and the 2-channel gear that they hold in such esteem . High quality AV Receivers can deliver superb 2-channel audio quality! The only reason they can also cost less at the same time is due to economies of scale.

But that aside, a good AV Receiver will also, IMO, include pre-outs! Those pre-outs allow you to connect a separate, more powerful, or high quality amplifier if you ever decide you want to do so! That basically means that if you want "separates", you can still have them! The AV Receiver will simply be acting as your Processor at that point. But it will be a Processor with many more inputs, HDMI switching, a built-in DAC, built-in bass management and subwoofer crossover, the full suite of surround sound decoding formats, auto EQ and room correction, and likely a whole host of Ethernet connected features and maybe wireless features as well. If you're concerned that a separate amp might give you better sound quality, you can go ahead and connect a separate amp whenever you want!

So, in summary, to me, there is zero downside in getting an AV Receiver, and potentially many, many upsides. You do not have to give up anything in the way of sound quality or higher powered amplification if you do not want to. And if you do not want to ever use the surround sound decoding, the subwoofer crossover, the HDMI switching, the Ethernet or wireless features, the auto EQ room correction, etc. etc. - if you don't like or don't want to use any of those things, you don't have to! You can turn them all off But the point is that you HAVE all of those options. You can try them out, and decide for yourself whether you want to use them or not. With most 2-channel gear, you won't have all of those options available to you.

And none of that is to mention the fact that, you MIGHT, one day, decide that you'd like to add Surround speakers, or a Center speaker, after all. I know that is not your plan right now. But plans can sometimes change Again, the AV Receiver just gives you more options.

That's my argument for going with an AV Receiver

In terms of specific products, I personally prefer Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and Integra brand products, simply because I happen to find Audyssey to be the best auto EQ program. That's just me. And to be honest, I find Pioneer's MCACC to be the 2nd best, with Yamaha's YPAO rather far behind.

As I said, I personally only like to recommend AV Receivers that include pre-outs so that you can add a separate amplifier if you ever want to! To me, probably the best choice right now is the Marantz SR5008. It's a gorgeous AV Receiver with every feature that I've talked about, and excellent sound quality all on its own. Should you ever want to, you can add separate, high power amplification, though it's unlikely you would actually need to. One quibble is that the Marantz units don't off a phono input for a vinyl record player. But if you're not spinning vinyl, I'd most highly recommend the Marantz AV Receivers to you.

Hope that helps!

[mapmn006]

Thanks for the responses guys! It took me 2 months of research to find and settle on the Sierra towers as the speakers for me. Im in Las Vegas and am planning a trip to Ascend to listen to them within the month (it's only 4 hrs. away!). Powering them was the sticking point I was unsettled on. I just want to do these speakers justice. I think going with an AV receiver makes sense for my situation. The Marantz 5008 was one of the receivers on my list of possible options. Another one i was looking at was the Denon 3313ci ($800 USD). Ive heard Onkyo have had hdmi quality issues recently, but i was also looking at the Onkyo 709 ($500 USD). Johnathan, what would a step up from the 5008 be? Would it be worth it to step up, or at $900 USD on Amazon would the 5008 be the right fit for me?

I just want to thank you both for taking the time to help me. I am a research nut with everything i buy. I think it's great how forums can be used to let people help each other. I've read many forums over the years when researching topics, but this is the first one I've participated in. I once spent 25 hrs. trying to figure out what the best dog food is for my Rottweiler puppy (the answer was Orijen). Thanks again guys ...ill keep the thread updated on what i go with and maybe a pic of the setup in the end.

Now i have to settle the RAAL vs NRT issue for my situation...arggggg

[Kisakuku]

The Marantz 5008 was one of the receivers on my list of possible options. Another one i was looking at was the Denon 3313ci ($800 USD).

If you do value room correction, there's quite a bit of difference between Audyssey XT (16 filters for your upcoming Sierra Towers) and XT32 (512 filters). I would go with a Denon X4000 (or older 4311 if you can find one). Also a good idea to call AVScience; they are an authorized dealer and usually sell quite a bit below MSRP.

[mapmn006]

I value room correction based on what i have read. Having never used it what i know is it is quit important. The price difference between the Denon 3313/Marantz 5008 (XT) and the x4000 (XT32) is 400-500ish. Is XT32 worth the price premium? I guess the answer will be unique to each owner...but I'm not sure for my situation...i'll see if i can find info on comparing the two...the X4000 might have other advantages too. Thanks for bringing it up. I've read good room correction is more important than say RAAL vs NRT...hummm

[Kisakuku]

I value room correction based on what i have read. Having never used it what i know is it is quit important. The price difference between the Denon 3313/Marantz 5008 (XT) and the x4000 (XT32) is 400-500ish. Is XT32 worth the price premium? I guess the answer will be unique to each owner...but I'm not sure for my situation...i'll see if i can find info on comparing the two...the X4000 might have other advantages too. Thanks for bringing it up. I've read good room correction is more important than say RAAL vs NRT...hummm

Until you get a subwoofer, you won't be using XT to its full potential, because its filter resolution for satellite channels is only 1/8 of the filter resolution for the subwoofer channel. XT32 will have 32 times more filters for your new Sierra Towers. So for your system, the upgrade from XT to XT32 is even greater than for a typical HT enthusiast with a subwoofer or two.

Here's an AVS thread about picking between 3313 and X4000. The price premium for X4000 might be smaller if you go through AVS, might be worth a call.

[mapmn006]

I read the thread last night. I also read a few threads on XT and XT32. Seems XT32 is a big deal. Some people were getting new receivers just to get XT32. Seems when Audyssey comes out with a new version it's a quantum leap.

Both 3313ci and X4000 have 125 watts per channel. The Marantz 5008 has 100. Is that a big difference? 125 vs 100. Also as far as power goes...will adding a sub give the speakers more power because now the speakers don't have to worry about the crossed over lower Hz. I'm not sure if i just made that up or I read that somewhere. I ask because a few people are saying all middle of the road receivers will need a separate amp. By adding a sub it seems to be a better use of $$$ if a person wants a sub, adding a sub does in fact give the mains more power, and the added power is enough to now not have to add an amp.

[tme110]

Is that a big difference? 125 vs 100. .

Its not even noticeable, the difference.

But with a sub the RCVR no longer has to power the low frequency stuff which takes the most power. It may not be a noticeable difference unless you are power limited to begin with. My last receiver only had 50watts so I had no choice. Now I use separates probably have a couple 1000 watts of combined sustainable power so it's no longer an issue but still can't live without the sub. Look at the emotiva stuff if you want to think about separates some more.

[FirstReflect]

If you can afford the Denon AVR-X4000, that unit is an absolute BEAST in terms of features and sound quality. I have ZERO reservations in recommending that AV Receiver! My only reason for recommending the Marantz SR5008 previously was that I figured you might want to keep the price as low as possible while still getting every important feature that I mentioned, along with great sound quality. Going one model up in the Marantz lineup (to the SR6008) didn't really get you any important features for your 2-channel + subwoofer(s) setup. And the SR7008 goes way above your desired budget!

But the Denon AVR-X4000 is more within "striking distance" of your desired budget, and it offers up some nice upgrades in terms of features, to be sure!

An AV Receiver like the Denon X4000 can be a little bit confusing and intimidating if you're new to home theater, though It really does have just about every feature and input under the sun! But that also means there is more the manage, and deeper, more confusing menus to dig through. But if you love playing with features (and everybody should! ), and you can afford the X4000, by all means, I have no qualms in saying, "go for it!"

The whole "how many Watts do I need?" topic can be confusing. But here's the quick breakdown:

The first thing to know is that movies are meant to have an average loudness of 85dB with peaks in the speakers as loud as 105dB, and peaks in the deep subwoofer bass as loud as 115dB. Music is a little bit different. Not every recording adheres to a set standard the way movies do. But a full blast orchestra or grand piano can get as loud as 120dB!

To figure out how many Watts you need, there are a few things to know.

First, every time you increase the loudness by 3dB, you need 2x the Watts. Yes, you need to DOUBLE the number of Watts in order to get a 3dB increase in loudness. To get a 10dB increase in loudness, you need 10x the Watts.

So, real quick, you can see that going from the 85dB average in movies to those 105dB peaks -- that's 20dB louder, so you need 100x as many Watts to hit 105dB as you do in order to hit 85dB. Yes. 100x as many Watts. So the numbers can rise very quickly!

But the second part is this: the efficiency (aka. sensitivity) or your speakers. The Sierra Towers have an efficiency of 89dB/2.83 Volts/1 meter in a completely anechoic (zero echoes or reflections) chamber. In any real room, where there will be some reflections and the sound will bounce around a little bit, you will get at least a 3dB boost to the loudness that you hear from the speaker. That's conservative, but you can count on 3dB louder, just from being played in a normal room.

So, in real world terms, what those numbers mean is that if you put 1 Watt of power into the Sierra Towers, and you stand 1 meter (about 3 feet) away, they will produce 92dB of loudness in any normal room! Yes, 92dB from just 1 Watt!

So good news! That 100x as many Watts figure isn't so bad or out of reach anymore, is it?

Well, one more thing to consider is that the farther away you are from the speaker, the quieter the sound gets. In a wide open field, where there are almost no reflections or echoes, every time you move twice as far away (from 1 meter to 2 meters, or from 2 meters to 4 meters, etc.) the sound gets 6dB quieter. Again, inside a real room, where there ARE reflections, every time you move twice as far away, you lose about 3dB of loudness instead of 6dB.

So, let's say you're sitting about 12 feet away from the speakers - a pretty common distance in an average home, maybe even a little on the far side since your speakers are typically a bit closer to you than your TV screen. But, for this example, it works nicely, since that's roughly 4 meters, which is the 1 meter distance doubled, and then doubled again. So, in any normal room, we've lost about 6dB of loudness by moving to 12 feet away instead of 3 feet.

So, once again, we put just 1 Watt of power into the Sierra Tower speaker, and - from 12 feet away now - it produces about 86dB of loudness. So great news! In order to hit those 105dB peaks that movies call for, you only need 100 Watts or so! And any of these good AV Receivers that we've talked about can deliver that. Especially when it is only 2 speakers and not 5 or 7. So the bottom line is that, mathematically, anyway, you should not really need a separate amplifier

Now, your situation could easily be different. Maybe you sit farther away. If you sit closer to 20 feet away, you might need another 3dB more loudness or so. Remember, 3dB more loudness requires 2x the Watts! So you've suddenly jumped up to needing 200 Watts instead of 100 Watts in order to hit those 105dB peaks. You can see how it starts to add up quickly!

And if you were using less efficient speakers, or using them in a gigantic room, or a very heavily deadened room that provides almost no reflections to help boost the loudness that you hear, well, you might drop another 3dB or 6dB, which might mean you'd need 400 Watts or 800 Watts to keep things equally as loud.

So, you can see where separate, high power amplifiers certainly have their place. But for MOST situations, the power provided by any of these good AV Receivers is perfectly adequate.

And yes, offloading most of the deep bass to a separate subwoofer with its own, built-in amplifier does take some of the strain off of your AV Receiver's amplifiers that are powering the speakers, which are now mostly playing only the higher frequencies.

There are still potentially other reasons to use a separate amplifier. Some of the very best amplifiers offer a better noise floor. With most amps, even good ones, if you crank up the volume, but just have it sitting idle, not actually playing any sound, you can make out a soft hiss coming from your speakers. You might have even noticed this in a full sized movie theater - when they first fire up the system, sometimes there's a short moment of blackness and silence, but you can most often hear a soft hiss coming from all the speakers.

That's just the inherent electrical background noise in your system! If you press your ear right up against any high-power device when it's just sitting idle, you can usually hear some sort of hum or slight buzz coming from its power supply. That sort of operational hum, along with other background electrical noises, can make its way into any amplifier, and you'll hear it as this very soft background hiss when your system is on, but just sitting there idle in silence.

It's really not a problem As soon as anything starts playing, even a very quiet sound, it completely masks that soft hiss, and you forget all about it! But with the very best amps, and the very best gear, that noise floor can pretty much completely disappear! I've had my own experience with this. I was honestly rather shocked. I've owned several very good AV Receivers, and a few separate amps. All of them had at least a little bit of noise floor hiss coming through the speakers. It was truly no big deal - I had to get my ear quite close to the speakers to even hear it. But they were all roughly the same. Some a tiny bit louder, but all pretty darn close.

Then I got a flagship Onkyo TX-NR5010. I didn't buy it because I "needed" it in any way, or had even really planned on buying it. I had an opportunity to buy one for almost $1200 off MSRP, and I just couldn't pass it up! I must stress that I did not expect any great improvement or difference from any other AV Receiver I had ever owned. I was convinced that amps - good ones, at least - really made virtually no difference to the sound. And I had often joked that the 5010 only existed in Onkyo's lineup for people who had more money than sense! After all, the 3010 offered all the same features for quite a bit less money (at least at the MSRP).

Well, colour me shocked. The TX-NR5010 was as close to DEAD silent as I've ever heard. Technically, there's still a noise floor. But I literally had to physically press my ear against the drivers of my speakers in order to hear it. It was just pure silence from even an inch away.

My ATI separate amps, and some of the Anthem amps that I've tried out in stores are the closest I've come to that same dead silence. But I have to say, the TX-NR5010 was even a touch quieter. It truly surprised me.

So how important is that dead silent noise floor in real world listening? Honestly, not very important at all But I must say, it's akin to having just the deepest black levels possible on a display. Having the deepest, inkiest black gives you the very best contrast, and I've found that to be similar with audio. From that utter dead silent background, I get the very best contrast in the sounds, and the sense that absolutely no detail what-so-ever is being obscured or masked in any way.

Then there are all the other forms of distortion, which a really great amp will shun a little bit better than a merely "good" amp. But, frankly, it's splitting hairs. And I would absolutely defy ANY listener to honestly pick out differences between competent amps in a truly blind test. Unless an competent amp is being pushed to the limits of its output capabilities (which can happen, especially with very low impedance speakers, or very inefficient speakers, or in a huge room) there just aren't any audible differences. Or if they are there, they're so small as to be inconsequential.

The bottom line is that you do NOT need a separate amp in order to get good performance from the Sierra Towers. Not in any "normal" sort of setting, anyway. But that does not mean that I think a separate amp is a complete waste of money. There CAN be improvements. But my point is that you honestly do not NEED them, those improvements - if they even exist - are minute, and you're often forced to pay quite a lot of money for so little gain.

Hopefully, this explanation will help you to feel more confident about what you actually need, what these AV Receivers can supply, and what some of these confusing numbers mean!