How much Toe-in do you do?

[wtrimble]

Hey guys, just some background, I've got Sierra-1's LCR, and a pair of HTM-200se doing surround duties hooked up to a Pioneer 1222k.

I was wondering, how much do you guys toe in your speakers?

My current setup is, what looks "nice", are the LR speakers positioned right next to the side of the TV facing straight ahead as my room is narrow (around 12' I believe) and has doors opening into the room on either side. However when I'm home by myself, I like to move the speakers farther a part and barracade the doors shut so I can get some space in between the speakers (yes, there's another door in the back of the room to get around the house & outside ).

I like to listen to music in 2.1 and also watch movies in 5.1. I can move the speakers about 10 feet apart in my room, and I sit about 11 feet away. So I was wondering if I should be tilting the speakers towards me when I listen to music and/or watch movies or if I should just leave them facing straight ahead. What do you guys do?

[curtis]

This is a bit of a cop out answer...but, every room is different, as is our preferences, so you should just do what sounds best to you.

That said, mine are aimed at a point about 3 feet behind the main listening position.

[wtrimble]

This is a bit of a cop out answer...but, every room is different, as is our preferences, so you should just do what sounds best to you.

That said, mine are aimed at a point about 3 feet behind the main listening position.

Thanks for the reply. How do you determine where the speakers are pointing at? Did you stand 3 feet back from your seating position and aim the speakers to that point?

Maybe people could chime in on what they toe in their speakers to see if there is any kind of consensus.

[curtis]

Thanks for the reply. How do you determine where the speakers are pointing at? Did you stand 3 feet back from your seating position and aim the speakers to that point?

Maybe people could chime in on what they toe in their speakers to see if there is any kind of consensus.

Well, I just adjusted toe-in until I felt it sounded best.

[FirstReflect]

If you want to get technical:

start with the mental image of a 6 foot wide seating area - essentially a 3-seat couch.

Imagine you are in the right-most seat of that 3-seat couch. Now imagine that you are looking diagonally across at the Front Left speaker. If you were to swap places, and now be looking at your seat from the Front Left speaker's point of view, the entire couch should be within a 60 degree "cone" in front of you. In other words, draw a straight line shooting straight out the front of the speaker. Now go 30 degrees to the left of that straight-ahead line. We'll call this minus 30 degrees. If you are looking from the Front Left speaker's point of view, the right-most seat on the couch should be just inside that minus 30 degree line. Also draw a line that is 30 degrees to the right of the straight-ahead line coming out the front of the Front Left speaker. We'll call this plus 30 degrees. The left-most seat on the couch should be well inside the plus 30 degree line.

If you cannot fit the entire 3-seat couch within the plus and minus 30 degree lines (a 60 degree spread, in all), then it is more important to keep the left-most seat on the couch well within the plus 30 degree line. The right-most seat can be outside of the minus 30 degree line, but try to keep it within a minus 45 degree line at the maximum.

All of that said, you MUST let your ears be the judge! Trying to keep the 3-seat couch area within plus/minus 30 degrees of the front face of the speakers can occasionally lead to some steep toe-in if you sit quite close to your speakers. So this is not a "hard" rule, by any means! But if you keep your entire 3-seat couch within plus/minus 30 degrees of the front face of your speakers, then all 3 seats should get very even, uniform sound

[wtrimble]

Thanks for the step by step Jonathan, I forgot to check back on here after I posted.

Well I randomly had the urge to listen to the Sierras with the Q Plug As in them and I instantly noticed the sound stage had opened up (is that what it's called when listening to 2 channel stereo the sound sounds like it comes from the center?). The speakers were pretty much facing straight forward about 10 feet apart. I was on my tablet half way through the first song and looked up and went, woa! Not sure why the Q Plugs did this but they sound great with them in. They also seemed to integrate with my sub much better too (VTF2-MK4). They're kindof close to the back wall, around 3-5", so I thought I'd try them.

I had the urge to tweak the speaker positioning and toe them in a little bit just out of habit, but I had to stop myself because it sounded good and I just need to enjoy it

So for now I will leave them straightfoward

[Blutarsky]

I agree here. I even (obsessively) use a large carpenters square to obtain this.

B.

[Mag_Neato]

I agree here. I even (obsessively) use a large carpenters square to obtain this.

B.

You ARE obsessive! I only use a tape measure and make sure each front corner is the exact same distance from the wall

[Blutarsky]

Thank's, it comes naturally. At least, I already had the square.
I cover the edges with tape.
B.

[FirstReflect]

@wtrimble

Glad I could be of some help

What you are describing - with the sound seeming to come from a Center speaker that isn't physically there - that is called "imaging".

When it comes to audio terms, "soundstage" refers to the overall sense of how large the "stage" in front of you seems to be - from side to side, front to back, and bottom to top. It is the illusion that if you were to close your eyes, you could imagine that you are at a live concert. Now, with your eyes closed, do you get the illusion that you are in a tiny jazz club, seated way at the back of the room so that the stage where the performers are is very small? Or do you get the sense that you are front row at an outdoor stadium, where the stage seems to be massive in front of you? A great audio system can create the illusion of either extreme, or anything in between!

Our hearing relies on subconscious audio cues - essentially all of the reflections and echoes that we do not consciously pay attention to, but our brain uses all of that information to give us a sense of our surroundings. It is how you can have your eyes closed, but still get a very good sense of being in a very large room, or a very small room.

Good recordings often include a lot of this "sound cue" information - especially if they are recordings of live concerts, or specially engineered in the studio to contain sound cue information that will inform your brain as to the size of the venue. When all of that sound is properly played back by a great sound system, you get a very convincing illusion. That illusions might be a very small stage, or a huge stage. But the point is that the "soundstage" created by your speakers is whatever size the recording artists intended!

Most speaker systems cannot convincingly create these illusions. And that's because 50% of the equation is the room, not just the speakers! But even in a wonderful listening room that is well designed for audio, your speakers still need to do their part. So, sometimes, you'll read reviews where it's noted that the speakers create a very "wide soundstage" or a very "narrow soundstage". Or you'll read that there was "good soundstage depth" or "a sense of height to the sound". All of those kinds of descriptions are just explaining whether the speakers themselves place limitations on the illusion of the size of the stage in front of you

"Imaging" refers to how well your sound system creates the illusion of individual voices or instruments on that soundstage. Can you close your eyes and picture the exact spot on the stage where the lead vocalist was standing? With your eyes closed, can you easily tell, just by the sound, that the lead guitarists was closer to the audience than the lead vocalist, and standing over on the right hand side of the stage? Can you tell that the drums were behind the lead vocalist? Maybe even tell if the drums were elevated? Or how about an orchestra? Can you tell where each instrument section was seated? Or maybe even pick out individual instruments within each section?

That is all "imaging". It's like an audio hologram that you can picture in your mind's eye

So a rock solid "center image" means that, with your eyes closed, you would swear that the sound was coming from straight in front of you, even though the speakers themselves are to the left and the right of center. If the "soundstage opened up", that would typically mean that previously, you always got a sense of a very small and confined stage in front of you. Or maybe there was just zero sense of front to back depth to the stage, or zero sense of height. If the "soundstage opened up", that means you now have the illusion of a much larger stage in front of you, and you can better picture the actual venue of the performance, rather than everything always sounding confined to the same size stage, regardless of what the recording artist intended.