You Guys Wanna Hear About Some Custom Speakers?

[FirstReflect]

Hoo-boy.

Well, I figured I would post my early Sierra-2 impressions within my own thread here.

I picked up my Sierra-2 upgrade kits from the Post Office last night. Today, I did the upgrades, which went pretty darn smoothly, thank goodness, and had my first listen.

The Sierra-1 NrT and the Sierra-2 sound different from one another. Straight up. No ifs, ands, or buts. There's a clear difference, I'd be able to tell them apart blind, and the Sierra-2 are, in my opinion, superior. Like we've all been saying, they sound more realistic, clearer, more detailed. Where the Sierra-1 NrT sound like very good speakers, the Sierra-2 just plain sound closer to being real life. There's also a greater sense of atmosphere and the acoustics of the recording venue when such things are contained within the recording.

So for anyone who is wondering whether the Sierra-2 present a discernible and worthwhile upgrade over the already very good Sierra-1 NrT, the answer is absolutely and unequivocally, "yes". There can be no doubt as to which speaker is playing when switching between the two. I won't say "night and day difference" because I hate that saying, and I also don't think it's true in this case. But it's a clear difference. We can put that to rest

But now for the much, much tougher part:

To my ear, the Sierra-2 and my super-custom Front Wide Sierra bookshelf speakers that have the Towers/Horizon dedicated midrange driver and the larger RAAL 70-20XR tweeter in them do not sound identical. They are really, really close, but they are not identical.

Oy.

This is a really tough one for me to explain. To start, my super-custom Front Wides and my Horizon RAAL Front speakers sound identical. Obviously, the bass extension is different - my Front Wides can't play much at all below 90Hz, and I've found a 120Hz crossover to my subwoofers to be the best. But other than the bass extension and output, they sound identical in the midrange and treble. The match is blissfully good.

The Sierra-2 do not sound identical. But it's very, very close. Closer than a speaker selling for the price of the Sierra-2 probably has any right to get. But it's not quite identical.

The question is, is it close enough that I would be 100% satisfied using the Sierra-2 in the Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height positions, as was my intent? And man oh man, I honestly have not decided yet.

So here is what my experience has been so far: if I start with the Front Wides playing, and then I quickly switch over to the Sierra-2, it's awfully hard to tell the difference. One issue is that the Sierra-2 clearly play lower in the bass than the Front Wides that are using only the dedicated Tower/Horizon midrange driver. Even setting the high pass crossover, that low end response isn't identical because the filter is a slope, so the Sierra-2 is still producing a bit deeper bass.

But the trick is when I start by listening to the Sierra-2 and then rapidly switching over to the Front Wides. When I do that, it's like, "oh...crap...that does sound better. Crap. I was hoping it wouldn't. But it does."



The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides just sound that little bit more open, that little bit more real, and that little bit - I don't even know. It's like the last lens flip when you're taking an eye exam to get some new glasses. It's just

Sierra-2 -- gosh darn it that sounds real and good

Horizon RAAL -- holy crap! That sounds holographic!

I don't know what to do, guys -- haha.

Here's the thing, by comparison, the Sierra-1 NrT aren't even close. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but my point is that there's no question at all when it's comparing the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides to the Sierra-1 NrT. In that setup, there's a clear and obvious difference in the sound, and I'm itching for an even better and more seamless match.

With the Sierra-2, it's like different shades of the same thing. I WANT the Sierra-2 to completely satisfy me. It's the much easier and less costly option. And when I go from the Horizon RAAL or my Front Wides to the Sierra-2, it's not at all like the Sierra-1 NrT. It's really tough to tell them apart going in that direction. I can almost convince myself.

But then I go back from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL or my Front Wides, and I just can't help it, "crap. The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides do still sound better. Crap."

lol

But here's the real kicker: I really want that extra bit of bass extension in my Surround, Surround Back, and Front Height channels. The high crossover point works for my Front Wides because my subwoofers are literally right beside them. There's no discernible gap or audible transition. But with the Surrounds, Backs, and Heights farther away, I'd really like to have a lower crossover point to the subs to keep that transition seamless.

And let's not forget, the Surrounds, Backs, and Heights are all elevated. And frankly, they're rarely playing the exact same sounds as the Front 3 or the Front Wides. Will I really notice that slightly more open, slightly more realistic sound in my Front 5 speakers with regular movies and content?

Truthfully, I'm just going to have to put these Sierra-2 in the Surround positions and find out!

So the best thing I can say about them is that they're so close to the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides that they're definitely worthy of further study. Placed in the elevated Surround positions, they very well might be seamless enough that their deeper bass extension makes them the superior choice vs. some more super-custom bookshelf speakers with the Tower/Horizon midrange driver and the 70-20XR in them.

The worst thing I can say about them is that they do not sound identical to the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides. The Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides still hold the edge. Using them as Front Main speakers and quickly A-B comparing them, the Horizon RAAL still win out over the Sierra-2. I don't know if it's because the 70-20XR is handling frequencies below where the Sierra-2's ribbon tweeter rolls off. I don't know if it's the dedicated midrange driver. But the Horizon RAAL and my Front Wides remain that little bit more open, that little bit more real. I switch from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL and it's just clearer and better. But unlike the difference between the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-1 NrT, the tone and timbre remain very much the same, and that's why they really do just sound like slightly different shades of one another, rather than outright different speakers.

Gosh, I wish I had no doubt. I wish the Sierra-2 were so remarkable that I could switch between them and my Horizon RAAL and just be unable to distinguish. But that is not the case.

If you only ever heard the Horizon RAAL separately, if you never directly A-B compared them and rapidly switched back and forth, I'd wager all my money that you'd swear they sound identical to the Sierra-2. The tone and timbre are an excellent match. For a bookshelf speaker that CAN produce satisfying bass extension and output, the Sierra-2 cannot be beat. But that darn A-B comparison. I just can't say that the match is perfect. The Horizon RAAL still win out. They say to you, "you like those Sierra-2, eh? Think things can't sound any better or more real, eh? Well have a taste of THIS!" And there it is: holographically real sound, the Sierra-2 taken to the nth degree.

Darn it, Dave! Why does that dedicated Horizon midrange driver and that RAAL 70-20XR tweeter have to take it to that level? Why can't the Sierra-2 just be the pinnacle, and all the Horizon RAAL can do is play louder and maybe lower? Why does there have to be this extra "holy crap" level of realism?

I dunno, folks. I will have to listen some more. I will have to put my Front Wides in all of those elevated positions and see if the high crossover point can still blend seamlessly with my subs. I will have to try the Sierra-2 in all of those positions as well and see if I can still make out the difference.

It's close. Close enough that I cannot easily decide to bypass the Sierra-2 and just use the dedicated Horizon midrange and the RAAL 70-20XR all around. The tone and timbre most definitely match pretty much flawlessly, unlike the Sierra-1 NrT. But there's a difference. That nagging, small, but "holy crap are the Horizon RAAL good speakers" difference.

Ay-yi-yi

[eliwankenobi]

Hey Rob!

Wouldn't Audyssey help a little bit with those differences?

Also, wouldn't you rather want to be 90% closer to you custom horizons (assuming they are that close) than maybe 60% close? As you said, with the S2s there is a slight difference, while with the NrT it is just straight up easy to spot that its a different speaker.

I don't know, but it seems to me that you like them more than the NrTs for sure, and although not 100% convinced, you are looking for that extra push towards keeping them, like you are over the edge of the pit and need someone to push you over... Well sir, I am here to push you!! Keep them and upgrade the other NrTs!

Test proposal: Set them as surrounds in 5.1 and play some sweeps to have a base line, but then play some movie content. See If the sound of the speakers is good enough you can forget about the differences and just enjoy the content! I think it should. I mean, so far you have been happy with the NrTs so....how could the Sierra-2 be any worse?

[davef]

Hey Rob!

Wouldn't Audyssey help a little bit with those differences?

Also, wouldn't you rather want to be 90% closer to you custom horizons (assuming they are that close) than maybe 60% close? As you said, with the S2s there is a slight difference, while with the NrT it is just straight up easy to spot that its a different speaker.

I don't know, but it seems to me that you like them more than the NrTs for sure, and although not 100% convinced, you are looking for that extra push towards keeping them, like you are over the edge of the pit and need someone to push you over... Well sir, I am here to push you!! Keep them and upgrade the other NrTs!

Test proposal: Set them as surrounds in 5.1 and play some sweeps to have a base line, but then play some movie content. See If the sound of the speakers is good enough you can forget about the differences and just enjoy the content! I think it should. I mean, so far you have been happy with the NrTs so....how could the Sierra-2 be any worse?

I think what Rob is trying to determine is to either go with the Sierra-2 all the way around (as surrounds) -or- with more of the custom bookshelf speakers we made for him (which are much more expensive)

The issue is that he wants more of the low end response of S-2's, while also having the slight bit of higher performance offered by the dedicated midrange of the tower in combination with our custom 70-20 ribbon. Problem is, and I know Rob knows this -- is that just isn't possible in a 2-way speaker. To get the low end, we need the woofer mass -- but that added mass is what gives lighter mass mid/ribbon combo in the tower/horizon that slight bit of an advantage in performance. Ascend, RAAL and SEAS -- we all did our very best to get that same level of performance in a bookshelf speaker -- but, defying the laws of physics is not something any of us have learned to do

For me, I love the way the Sierra-2's blend with the RAAL towers and Horizon - but Rob is about as critical of a listener that I know of and seeks perfection.

[petmotel]

Wow, I had the Towers and Twos set up side by side for several days, and threw tons of super high quality music at the two. I could definitely discern there was a difference in the bass, but the high frequencies, the mids, and even the dynamics were so very close between these speakers. I was actually quite astonished, I figured the dynamics of the Towers should be appreciably better than the Sierra-2s, which I did not find to be the case.

I truly think that if I had set a high pass on the two at something around 60 Hz, it would be extremely difficult to tell which was playing.

I think you now need to do a level matched, double blind ABX test to convince yourself that bias was not the cause of your results (just kidding of course). It could well be your hearing is more sensitive than mine, I'm in my late 50s, and when I last did a hearing test, I topped out at 15kHz.

In any case, your results are interesting, I'm wondering if you could try to better quantify exactly where the differences you found were?

Jay

[eliwankenobi]

I think what Rob is trying to determine is to either go with the Sierra-2 all the way around (as surrounds) -or- with more of the custom bookshelf speakers we made for him (which are much more expensive)

The issue is that he wants more of the low end response of S-2's, while also having the slight bit of higher performance offered by the dedicated midrange of the tower in combination with our custom 70-20 ribbon. Problem is, and I know Rob knows this -- is that just isn't possible in a 2-way speaker. To get the low end, we need the woofer mass -- but that added mass is what gives lighter mass mid/ribbon combo in the tower/horizon that slight bit of an advantage in performance. Ascend, RAAL and SEAS -- we all did our very best to get that same level of performance in a bookshelf speaker -- but, defying the laws of physics is not something any of us have learned to do

For me, I love the way the Sierra-2's blend with the RAAL towers and Horizon - but Rob is about as critical of a listener that I know of and seeks perfection.

Thanks Dave for clarifying! I know it can feel frustrating!

I guess another alternative is to get two more subs for the surrounds? Perhaps more subs in different positions will "mask" better the lack of bass response from the custom bookshelf with the 70-20 Raal and mirange woofer? That way he could get more custom bookshelves for surrounds.... It would be more expensive though... Way more..

I have heard the towers and horizon with Raal, but not next to my Sierra-2 for comparizon... But from what I remember the Towers to be, its easy to tell they are "cut from the same cloth". More similar than different. I concur with you Dave and with and believe I would be satisfied with S2s as surrounds for a tower combo...

Also as petmotel mentioned... Perhaps the S2s and his current speakers were not properly level matched and crossed at different frequencies to the sub..... Although, from what have read and heard from Rob on the AVRant podcast... He is very careful in taking care of these kinds of things..

Good luck Rob! I do hope you end up with something that makes you happier than what you are now..

[FirstReflect]

Thanks so much for your replies, guys

And, Dave, thank you so much for your understanding and interest in my little (ok...big) obsession here!

Dave has it right, I'm trying to decide between upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2, or upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to the same super-custom 70-20XR + Horizon midrange compliment as my Front Wides. I'm willing to pay for the latter, but it is not an inconsequential difference in price to me

Believe me, if I have any bias in my listening, it is in favour of the Sierra-2, not against them! haha. I WANT for them to be my ideal solution. It's a much easier upgrade! lol

I had them as level matched as possible - within 0.4dB according to my three different SPL meters I don't have granular enough control to get any closer, but that, by definition, ought to be inaudible. I also went through my whole rigmarole to get the crossover to the subwoofers set correctly for each pair of speakers. I did not want any differences in bass response to cloud my judgement, or mask what was going on in the midrange and treble.

I can tell you that I started with orchestral music. And I got really excited because, exactly like Jay said, I had a heck of a time telling the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2 apart! The timbre and tone are an excellent match.

To Eli's point, they are absolutely a closer match than the Sierra-1 NrT. They are most definitely an improvement. And for the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions, they might very well still prove ideal.

But I always base my critique on human voices. Singing, speaking, choral, harmony. Our hearing is more sensitive to human voices than anything else. And that's where I spotted the differences. Would I be able to do it blind? ABX? Well, I believe I could.

Like I mentioned, when I went from the Horizon RAAL to the Sierra-2, even with the slightest blip during the change over, it was tough to tell. The Sierra-2 do retain a remarkable similarity to the Horizon RAAL. But when I switched from the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL - I really, really hate to say it because it's another review cliché - but it is like a "veil is lifted".

To put it subjectively, imagine that someone is speaking to you from 6 feet away, and then they move to within 3 feet without getting any louder. That's the sort of difference I'm talking about. Same person, same voice, timbre nor tone changed, didn't sound like going from a speaker to real life. But the Horizon RAAL are just that little bit clearer, that little bit more distinct with human voices, have that little bit higher resolution.

It is the farthest thing from "night and day" difference. But at the same time, can you honestly say that you could never tell the difference between someone speaking to you from 6 feet away vs. 3 feet?

But will that difference be rendered moot by the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions? That is entirely possible if not downright likely! And that is what I need to test further. Can I put my super-custom Front Wides in all of those elevated positions and maintain the PERFECT sonic match to my Horizon RAALs? Will the Sierra-2 sound equally flawless in those compromised positions? I have to listen much more to determine that. And I shall

I must say, though, I've begun thinking that Sierra-2 upgrades all around might very well be in my future...EVEN if I can glean an ever so slightly better match with the Front Wide configuration. And that is because of my future plans.

In my house, I will have a dedicated theater, but I will also have my living room setup, and hopefully a games room, as well. It would be simple enough to purchase a Sierra-2 Center at that time (and probably one more pair, since I like the Front Wide channels so much ) and have perfectly matching Sierra-2 in every position for one of those two rooms!

If I decide that the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers can deliver an even more perfect match to my Horizon RAAL fronts, I can order 6 more of them at that time. I could also use dedicated mid-bass modules for each of them if the higher crossover frequency makes the subwoofers localizable. There is NO WAY I can add any additional mid-bass modules in my current, tiny, apartment theater! haha. I am literally laughing right this moment even thinking of it!

But that is all a very viable plan to me. The Sierra-2 ARE an improvement over the Sierra-1 NrT in my system. I have zero doubt or second thoughts of that. The timbral and tonal match are unmistakable with regards to my Horizon RAAL fronts.

I am being ridiculous. I'm well aware of that -- haha. But at this point, I'm more interested in what's POSSIBLE than what is reasonable. My custom Front Wides have demonstrated to me that even the Sierra-2 can be improved upon. But will the elevated positions render those improvements moot?

I'm basically just throwing my thoughts out here unfiltered because I know that some folks are interested and get a kick out of it I enjoy taking it to this ridiculous level. I find it fun. And I appreciate when other people are hyper critical because I'm the sort of person who notices those types of miniscule differences.

But to sum up for tonight, I really, really must stress that it is ONLY because of my super-custom Front Wides, and ONLY by direct A-B comparison that I even have any small doubts what-so-ever. The timbral and tonal match of the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL is astonishing. If I did not have my custom Front Wides for direct comparison, I would not think it possible for a bookshelf form factor to come any closer. Indeed, for instruments and sound effects, I do not think I could pass a blind ABX test.

But human voices: they are the ultimate bench test. And even with my bias of wanting the Sierra-2 to sound indistinguishable, I can't help but notice what sounds like a person speaking to me from 6 feet away vs. 3 feet.

Financially, convenience-wise, and very, very likely audibly after the speakers are put into those compromised elevated positions, I think the Sierra-2 probably make more sense for me to choose as my upgrade. With my future plans laid out, it's even easier to justify. EVEN if I still find the super-custom 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers to be superior, I've no way to deploy them in an ideal fashion in my current theater, and I will still be able to make full use of the 6 Sierra-2 in an additional future room! That means I really have no downside in choosing the Sierra-2. But for my own edification, I want to make absolutely sure!

But let's face it: it is I. I'm going to end up with Horizon RAAL in every single position if I can build a dedicated theater large enough

Thanks so much, everyone!

[petmotel]

Sorry if it seems I'm being critical, don't mean to be. I don't think anyone can question your integrity, or your passion, no one on this board goes to the lengths to help others here as you do. I have no doubt whatsoever that what you describe is exactly what you are hearing.

Just a bit surprised, I played a fair bit of both male and female vocals in my own comparisons (Jennifer Warnes, Patricia Barber, Kevin Mahogany, and Mark Knopfler) and failed to note the same results. I have noticed, and noted previously, a considerable difference in how these speakers sound in my large, open, shop area, as opposed to the small room my surround system resides in.

But I do agree, they are not EXACTLY the same sound, just so very very close, it's quite difficult to determine what, and where those differences exist. For me, it's just way below the threshold that I would consider worrying about it. As you yourself have commented, you're almost obsessively critical, something I understand fully, and appreciate. I have a feeling that your super sensitive abilities at differentiating sounds might well be one of the reasons you are drawn to this hobby.

One thought I do have concerning surround/height speakers in an elevated position, the somewhat wider vertical dispersion window provided by the Twos might be of some advantage compared with the dispersion pattern of your custom wides.

Jay

[FirstReflect]

What a day of listening!

Whelp, I think I have come to a decision. But let me tease that out for a little bit

So first of all, I can't stress enough that I have never been unhappy with my Ascend setup at any point. I was already pleased as punch with my Sierra-1 NrT Surrounds, Backs, and Heights. All of this upgrading talk was about possibility and obsession, never dissatisfaction.

I really do believe, though, that quite a few folks are able to spot the timbral and tonal differences between the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-1 NrT. They sound like slightly different speakers from one another. Meanwhile, my super-custom Front Wides that use the exact same RAAL 70-20XR tweeter and dedicated midrange driver as the ones found in the Horizon RAAL - they sounded identical to the Horizon RAAL, except for the bass extension, of course.

So that's where my whole thought process began: could I somehow get that identical sound offered by my Front Wide speakers into every single speaker position? Could I eliminate that slight timbral and tonal difference I was hearing coming from my Sierra-1 NrT speakers? I tried putting my Front Wide speakers into the Surround positions, and I found that I could! There was something remarkably pleasing and satisfying about having a truly seamless and perfectly matching sound field ALL around me. And now I wanted it

But I had to consider: sending in all 6 of my Sierra-1 NrT to Ascend to have them modified and outfitted with the 70-20XR and the dedicated midrange driver was going to be a sizeable expense. And not only that but the very limited bass output of that dedicated midrange driver would necessitate a high crossover frequency to my subwoofers, which might result in the upper bass becoming localizable, especially for the Surround Back or Front Height speakers where there's an appreciable distance. I also had to consider the dispersion characteristics of the 70-20XR tweeter. The vertical dispersion is clearly limited, so that might not have been the ideal choice for these Surround, Back and Height positions, all of which are elevated.

So along came the Sierra-2. The upgrades to my Sierra-1 NrT would be easy and relatively inexpensive. The bass response would be deeper, eliminating the localizable crossover worries. The dispersion might be slightly wider and taller than the 70-20XR tweeter due to the smaller dimensions of the Sierra-2 ribbon tweeter. And early owner reports were saying that the sound was basically a perfect match to the Towers RAAL! I got excited

So let's get to the meat. We seem to be in agreement around here: the Sierra-2 do not sound EXACTLY identical to the Horizon RAAL. But the timbre and tone are very, very close. They sound FAR more similar than different. But they're not quite IDENTICAL.

I don't think this comes as any surprise, really. The tweeter and woofer ARE different. Dave has maintained all along that the 70-20XR and the dedicated midrange driver still have some sonic advantages. And everything I've been hearing over the past two days lines up with that. Switching rapidly between the Sierra-2 and the Horizon RAAL, there's a wonderful realism and transparency with the Sierra-2, but then the Horizon RAAL make it sound as though I physically moved closer without the sound getting any louder. It's just that nth degree clearer, but it's enough to make me shake my head and say, "crap! I can't deny it. That really does sound just that little bit better."

The Horizon RAAL are out of this world.

But that's hyper critical listening with both the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2 up front, serving as Main Left & Right speakers. Would that little bit of extra clarity still be audible when the Sierra-2 are in the elevated Surround, Back, and Height positions? After today's findings...

yes and no.



Let's start with the dispersion. Horizontally, I could go as far as 35 degrees to either side before noting an audible change in the sound with the Sierra-2. By comparison, the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Front Wides gave me 30 degrees, but then a very, very gradual change out to as much as 45 degrees. Vertically, it was sort of the opposite: I only got to about 10 degrees either above or below on the Sierra-2, but then the change was very gradual beyond 10 degrees. With the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Front Wides, I got to maybe 12 degrees above or below, but then there was a much more abrupt change in the sound. I found that very interesting.

So in the elevated positions, I wouldn't strongly favour the horizontal dispersion of one over the other, but the vertical dispersion of the Sierra-2 - while not really any taller just in terms of how far above or below I could go before there was ANY change - did not have as abrupt a change in sound as the super-custom Front Wides.

Combine that vertical dispersion difference with the extremely compromised placement of the Front Height speakers, and I found zero advantage in using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in those particular positions. In fact, even the advantages of the Sierra-2 over the Sierra-1 NrT were present, but minimized. The very compromised placement of having the speakers up so high, so close to the ceiling, and angled downward meant that I still needed Audyssey MultEQ XT32's help in order to get the Front Wides sounding matched and coherent with the Front 3 Horizon RAAL speakers.

So there's my "no" answer For the Front Height positions, the extra clarity of the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers is not audible. The Sierra-2's better matching timbre and tone vs. the Sierra-1 NrT were appreciable, but even that improvement was hampered by the highly compromised placement. In short, the Sierra-2 were absolutely as good as it's going to get for those Front Height positions! So that settles whether or not I'll be returning this first trial pair of Sierra-2 upgrades. Nope! If nothing else, they can stay as my Front Height speakers, and I've zero concern about ever wanting the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers up there - they'd basically be going to "waste", and their more abrupt change in sound in their vertical dispersion would actually be an even greater detriment way up there.

So that's one question answered!

Now let's go to the Surround Back positions. I'll just cut to the chase: the high crossover frequency was localizable. Simply put, if I were going to end up using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers back there, I would need to pair them up with mid-bass modules, or I would have to use full sized Horizon RAAL speakers. I do need that bass extension!

In terms of the audible clarity that has made me go through all of this - if I was doing hyper critical tests where I was just switching back and forth between the super-custom Front Wides and the Sierra-2 back there, I had to admit that, yes, I could still make out the slight difference in sound between the two. But with regular 7-channel content? I never, ever took any notice of it. The Sierra-2 delivered the perfectly matching timbre and tone that I was after. Gone was that slight tonal shift if a sound circled all around me that I used to be able to notice with the Sierra-1 NrT.

So there's another win for the Sierra-2! Could I make an argument for using the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround Back positions? Sure. If I were listening to ONLY the Surround Back speakers at any moment, the Sierra-2 and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers did not sound EXACTLY the same. But please tell me when the heck you have ever come across a recording where nothing but the Surround Back channels are playing! I certainly can't think of any. And for circling pans or front-to-back / back-to-front pans, the Sierra-2 delivered the perfectly matching timbre and tone that I was after.

That's two questions answered!

Finally, we come to the Surround positions. If you've been keeping track, you already know the answer

I could spot the difference. Switching rapidly between the Sierra-2 and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround positions, the difference was audible, and that nth degree of clarity from the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers was appreciated. In regular content, as a sound panned from the Front Horizon RAAL to the Surround channel, the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speaker kept that sound absolutely flawless and seamless while the Sierra-2 imparted a very slight, but audible change.

But here's the thing: right now, I'm in this tiny apartment theatre. The Surround speakers are exceedingly close to me, and pretty much firing directly into my ears from either side! They're basically headphones in this current setup -- haha.

More than that, right now, they're so physically close to the locations of my subwoofers that the crossover wasn't localizable or distracting. But I already know from my Surround Back tests that it can be. In a larger room, I'm going to need that bass extension again for a seamless crossover.

So the Sierra-2 handily "won" 4 out of the 6 possible speakers. My Front Heights and Surround Backs will be Sierra-2. In those positions, they delivered everything I could possibly want, and the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers didn't provide my any audible benefits that could justify the increased price, or even really make an argument for their use. Easy. Done. Put it to bed

But the Surround positions still have me hemming and hawing for a moment. I'll be blunt - I would like to use the 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in the Surround positions. Much like the Front Wide positions, having that PERFECT match was magical and nice.

Would I advise anyone else to replace the Sierra-2 with super-custom 70-20XR + dedicated midrange Surrounds? Probably not -- haha. Again, the timbre and tone of the Sierra-2 are an excellent match! And in a larger room, where you're not so close to the Surround speakers that you're basically wearing them as headphones like I am? Not only would I doubt you would hear the difference, but I also believe you would far prefer to have the extended bass response of the Sierra-2 so that your crossover to the subwoofers would be seamless and never localizable.

But this is me we're talking about

Simply put, if I don't use a pair of 70-20XR + dedicated midrange speakers in those Surround positions, I'm always going to be left wondering and wishing. I know myself well enough -- haha. For now, in my tiny theatre, I think I can get away with the high crossover frequency to the subwoofers. Everything is so close together physically that it isn't localizable. But in my future, larger theatre, I'm going to need mid-bass modules for those Surround positions.

So it isn't entirely cut and dry because I have to consider my future plans! Not only that, but there is one other potential wrinkle: what about a bookshelf that uses the Sierra-2 CURV woofer, but uses the 70-20XR tweeter? How much of what I'm hearing is due to the dedicated phase-plug midrange driver? And how much of what I'm hearing is due to the fact that the 70-20XR crosses over to the woofer at a lower frequency vs. the Sierra-2 ribbon tweeter? It's entirely possible that it's all about that 70-20XR tweeter and its lower crossover, in which case, using the CURV driver instead of the dedicated midrange might give me everything I'm after without the need for an outboard mid-bass module!

And let's not forget the possibility of just using Horizon RAAL as my Surround speakers in my future, larger theatre.

So...I'll be keeping these Sierra-2 that I have. I will also be ordering 2 more upgrade kits. Those decisions are locked in my mind, and they will serve as my Front Height and Surround Back speakers.

My only remaining decision is what to do about my Surrounds. I can't forget that I could still just use Sierra-2 for the time being. As I mentioned in my last post, I always have the option to just move all of my Sierra-2 speakers into a second system in the future.

Cost is not my primary concern at all, but it's not as though money is inconsequential to me. To be completely honest, what I would LIKE to do would be to send in a pair of my Sierra-1 NrT to Ascend and have them modified to use the 70-20XR tweeter along with the Sierra-2's CURV woofer! I kind of really want to audition that custom configuration so that I can figure out whether what I'm hearing is all due to the lower crossover of the 70-20XR tweeter, or whether that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver is also responsible. If it's really mostly the 70-20XR tweeter, using the CURV woofer would give me the bass extension that I still want!

But what a potentially expensive audition! I would have to ship my Sierra-1 NrT pair. I would have to pay for the 70-20XR tweeter modifications, a completely new, custom crossover, and the CURV woofer upgrade. Then I would have to pay to ship them to me. I'd audition them, and then what if I discover that I really do need that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver? That's the cost of shipping them to Ascend again, paying to replace the crossover and the woofer, and then shipping them back to me again! Those could end up being some darn expensive bookshelf speakers! haha.

So I shall have to think about it a little more. I'm really, really tempted to just tell myself to stop being so ridiculous and just use Sierra-2 in those Surround positions. They sound excellent! They definitely improve upon the timbral and tonal match that was far more easily spotted when using the Sierra-1 NrT. I can easily, easily repurpose them in the future. And I don't have to worry about the bass extension creating a localizable crossover. Lots of advantages in choosing the Sierra-2, not to mention the cost savings!

But...possibility...

haha.

I mean, look, I'm fighting with myself! I'm struggling! I'm not doing that at all when it comes to the Front Height and Surround Back positions. Those will be Sierra-2. It was easy to decide. No struggle at all. But the Surrounds, I'm debating. That pretty much means I know I'm going to regret it if I don't go whole hog -- lol.

But WHICH whole hog? That's the question now. Even if I add a mid-bass module for each Surround speaker in the future, is that going to work out? The Surround speakers themselves will be elevated while the mid-bass modules will likely be on the floor directly below them. Will that truly be seamless? Will I end up trying to elevate those mid-bass modules? If I end up with that sort of craziness, I'm going to just want to have Horizon RAAL speakers up there instead!

Could a combo of the 70-20XR with the CURV woofer be the solution? I know it'll solve the bass extension concern. But what if it's not quite perfect? What if I need that dedicated phase-plug midrange driver to get me all the way there? That's potentially a very expensive experiment!

Decisions, decisions...

Regardless, I am waiting for the start of next month to make these final purchases. So I have a bit of time to ponder and discuss. What do y'all think? In my future theatre, my Front Wides will probably be getting mid-bass modules of their own. But they will still be at ear height, not elevated like the Surrounds, so I have no worries about them. 150Hz shouldn't be localizable in the vertical direction. If I have mid-bass modules on the floor and the Surround speakers elevated, I shouldn't be able to detect that. But I'm not 100% positive. How ridiculous would an elevated mid-bass module look? haha.

Thanks, everyone!

[petmotel]

I bought a second set of RAAL Towers for side surrounds, of course that was before the S-2s were available. I use my system for music far more than movies, and the thought for me was five identical speakers for surround music use. Even at that, the Horizon is not, in the strictest terms, identical to the Towers, even though it uses the same drivers.

I am very curious as to your thoughts of a custom with the 70-20XR RAAL, and the S-2 CURV mid/woofer. Maybe Dave would be willing to build a pair in his spare time (LOL), and let us know how it turns out? By Dave's "laws of physics" rationale, the mids should make a sizeable difference, and yet the higher crossover point could also be a major contributor to the slight differences.

Frankly, for your purposes, I think another pair of your custom RAAL front mains would be the ideal solution for side surrounds. That way you're assured of seamless integration, and plenty of bass extension.

Jay

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Jay!

Yes, I'm certainly considering using another pair of Horizon RAAL as my Surrounds. But that would only happen in the future, larger theatre. In my current, tiny theatre, the size would be an issue for sure.

Yup, I'm curious about the 70-20XR + CURV woofer combo. But I just don't think I'm willing to risk that much, potentially, in shipping costs. If I decide to go with the 70-20XR tweeter, it'll be with the dedicated, phase-plug midrange driver as its mate. I already know for certain what I'm getting with that combo, and it's what I want, to be frank