2.1/3.1 setup help

[noteworthy]

I'm looking for opinions, advice, suggestions on a proposed 2.1/3.1 setup. I will not go beyond 3.1. Intended use will be for movies, games, music. I'm trying to decide on one of the following options.

Options

- L/R CMT-340 SEs + 340 SE center + sub
- L/R Sierra 1s + sub (sub purchase will have to be delayed longer)
- L/R CBM-170 SEs + 340 SE center + sub
- L/R CMT-340 SEs + sub
- L/R CBM-170 SEs + 170 SE center + sub (three 170 SEs mounted on stands vertically across front)

Setup would be powered by Denon AVR-1712

11'x11'x'8 Room Layout

Room Layout 2.png


X's mark proposed speaker locations


With my room layout would a center really be desired? I do watch a lot of sci-fi and action movies. I have to factor in space constraints (not really hot on idea of center in front of dresser and don't want to wall mount it above TV), room size, and seating location, but would most likely go with a center if it offered improvement. I've read that given my room size and seating distance that a center might make things sound worse.

Would the bass be noticeably lacking, especially in movies, with L/R Sierra 1s and no sub? There's a chance that if I got the Sierra 1s that I wouldn't buy a sub. If I did purchase would be delayed

I came across this thread in my research. Of particular interest are the comments about Ascend speakers by shadyj and cschang (posts #6, #13, #27, #45)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1429503/st...00-suggestions

[natetg57]

how about placing your tv on top of a center channel speaker?

[noteworthy]

how about placing your tv on top of a center channel speaker?

The TV is currently at the ideal height, with my eyeline in the bottom 1/3-1/2 depending on if I'm sitting upright or laying back. I don't want it any higher, nor would I feel comfortable with a 72 lb TV on top of a center speaker. I don't want a riser either.

[Dark Ranger]

Hi noteworthy,

In my opinion, you should strongly consider a subwoofer for your proposed system. The Sierra-1 bass output/extension is great for music, but for movies they really need a sub. With modern movies you get big explosions and dynamic effects that, in my opinion, I'd rather not let a single 5.25" woofer deal with. For music, they are great. Perhaps even with gaming (although I use a sub with my FPS games). For movies, get a sub hands down.

That said, it appears that budget plays a part in your decision. I would rather have a stereo + sub (2.1) configuration than a LCR (3.0) with no sub. Also, many titles have a stereo mix available so you won't need to down-mix a 5.1/7.1 title to 3.0/3.1.

If you're still very interested in a center channel, you might check out the HTM-200 SE. It's smaller than all the speakers you listed in your first post, but could fit the bill for not much coin. Otherwise, any of the options you listed will be great. If your ratio of music/movies/games leans more to music, look into the Sierra-1s. If gaming/movies is more your thing, either the 170s or 340s will do fine. The 340s are a bit more sensitive and will fill a larger space more easily. In that size room, I'd lean towards the 170s. I have a similar sized bedroom (11x10x8) and went with the 170s over 340s due to space restrictions and concern for the 340s being "too much speaker" for the small room.

As one last option, you could go 3x HTM-200 SE + subwoofer. You could get your 3.1, but still come in under budget. The 200s will fill that room without any problem.

Hope that helps.

[noteworthy]

Thanks Jacob.

It's nice to hear from someone who has a setup in a similar sized room.

After some more reading and pondering, I think that L/R 340 SEs would be a bit much for my room. Not that there wouldn't be an improvement over the 170 SEs, but rather that I don't need the increased SPL to fill a larger space.

As far as a center, If I go with the L/R 170 SEs, which seems most likely, I will use a phantom center with various content and then make my decision to get one or not. I am concerned about placement of the center out in front of the dresser. I know an ideal placement for the front three is in an arc with the center slightly behind the mains. I don't know if having the center slightly in front of the mains would pose a problem. I was hoping to place the mains a little in front of the dresser, which would mean they are behind the center. I could move them forward more so that they are in line with the center, but that would eat up some of my limited floor space. I'll have to play around with placement once I actually get the speakers.

I really do want a subwoofer. However, the square shape and layout of my room creates a real challenge for placement and acoustics. Ideally a sub would be nice and really add to the 170 SEs or the Sierra 1s, but given my situation, I wonder if I would be better off without one. I want the added benefits of a sub, but I do not want to spend extra money on expensive room treatments.

I hope some of the Ascend guys chime in.

[Dark Ranger]

It's nice to hear from someone who has a setup in a similar sized room.

After some more reading and pondering, I think that L/R 340 SEs would be a bit much for my room. Not that there wouldn't be an improvement over the 170 SEs, but rather that I don't need the increased SPL to fill a larger space.

No problem. I went through a similar thought process last year. The 340s were designed to have very wide horizontal dispersion. For small rooms like ours (which already have the lion's share of acoustic problems), adding speakers with very wide dispersion didn't seem like a good idea to me.

Your Denon won't have any problem filling the room. I use a 50 watt (into 8 ohms) stereo amplifier for my 170s and can hit 110 dBC peaks at the listening position (i.e. way too loud for me). That said, 95% of the time is below 70 dBC average. I am completely satisfied with the performance and sound quality for the application.

As far as a center, If I go with the L/R 170 SEs, which seems most likely, I will use a phantom center with various content and then make my decision to get one or not. I am concerned about placement of the center out in front of the dresser. I know an ideal placement for the front three is in an arc with the center slightly behind the mains. I don't know if having the center slightly in front of the mains would pose a problem. I was hoping to place the mains a little in front of the dresser, which would mean they are behind the center. I could move them forward more so that they are in line with the center, but that would eat up some of my limited floor space. I'll have to play around with placement once I actually get the speakers.

I understand your concern about the center channel placement restrictions. If I were you, I wouldn't want to block the dresser either. I'd definitely choose a stereo setup in that case.

You've got the right idea with pulling out the L/R speakers in front of the dresser. I have my 170s on stands and they are about 2-3 inches in front of my dresser. I'm planning to pull them out another couple of inches. It's tough in rooms this small to get a good placement.

I really do want a subwoofer. However, the square shape and layout of my room creates a real challenge for placement and acoustics. Ideally a sub would be nice and really add to the 170 SEs or the Sierra 1s, but given my situation, I wonder if I would be better off without one. I want the added benefits of a sub, but I do not want to spend extra money on expensive room treatments.

Room treatments will definitely help control reflections and tame the low frequency issues in small rooms, but the good traps cost more than a few bucks. Based on the graphic of your room, I'd probably put the sub on the left side between the dresser and AV rack, or on the right side next to the dresser. That is assuming that the door can still fully open (I'm thinking it opens inward into your room).

I ran a subwoofer in my bedroom for about a year, and then gave up after extensive tweaking because it just sounded like a mess. The sub I used wasn't super HQ, but the room was just horrible. I gave it up and have been sub-less in that room for about 2 years. No regrets.

In your case, you might be able to get away with it, but you won't know without trying it. If you run sub-less, the Sierra-1s will give you the deeper extension than the 170s/340s. For movies, though, I'd be hesitant to run them full-range at reference levels with today's dynamic movies and strong LFE. A 5.25" woofer (or a 6" woofer for that matter) just cannot reproduce LFE like a 12" or 15" woofer can. It's just basic physics. I'd say get the 170s and a good subwoofer for well-rounded reproduction of music, movies, and games. If music carries more weight than movies or games, consider the Sierra-1s instead for added detail and resolution. In all honesty, you can't go wrong with any of the Ascend speakers.

Good luck.


P.S. If Dave or Brian don't get a chance to respond to your thread here (they're quite busy), I'd recommend you call Ascend directly. They are always happy to help!

[Dark Ranger]

I'm about ready to hit the racks, but a thought occurred to me while showering a few minutes ago (some of my best thinking is done in the shower ). I was mulling this over again and came up with another possible option.

If you want Sierra-1s for the added detail, resolution, and extension, but can't do a subwoofer right now, that's fine. For your music and games (and even movies at low to moderate levels), the Sierra-1s will be great. If you want reference levels (or higher) for movies, apply a crossover to the Sierra-1s to attenuate the very low frequencies. I'd suggest 60 Hz depending on the capabilities of your AVR. You can still enjoy movies at higher volumes on the Sierra-1s, but won't have to worry about blowing a woofer with a strong 20-40 Hz soundtrack of explosions and such. Of course, you'd have to remember to switch the Sierra-1s from LARGE (full-range) to SMALL (for crossover) each time you watch a loud movie. But this could work even with no subwoofer. The frequencies below the crossover point would be attenuated and lost due to the lack of a subwoofer, but it would allow you run the speakers very loud for movies while significantly reducing the risk of damage.

Another possibility is to look into the Q-Plug options for the Sierra-1s. Perhaps use Q-Plug Type A for the loud stuff, which naturally attenuates the lower frequencies without using a crossover. You can read more about Q-Plugs here.

Just trying to think outside the (subwoofer) box and put all options on the table.