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Thread: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Except MCACC doesn't do any equalization on the sub channel (from what I've been told. finding direct info from Pioneer on this has been problematic), and none of the advanced MCACC frequency points are below 60hz if memory serves. So if I throw the sub out of phase it won't do a thing to it to remedy any cancellation.

    Anyway, they are in phase at the current crossover point based on the cancellation I saw. And it was indeed cancellation. When I saw that db drop on the second pass at 180 degrees, I turned off the sub and it almost entirely went away (not totally because the Sierra's and the sub work in concert to keep things relatively flat normally... so no sub = less net output).

    As for running mains full range with a sub... why wouldn't you do it? If a main starts naturally rolling off at frequency X, what's the issue with asking another speaker to step in below X to keep the response going? I'm not saying I run it with the sub playing up where the Sierra's already have things covered. I'm not running some 12-24db bump overlap in the 40-50hz passband.


    Anyway, we're now talking about three different points at the same time. I confuse easily.

    1. Low crossover of subwoofer due to localization.

    I've tested this six ways to Sunday at every crossover point I have available to me from 80hz on down on two different sets of main speakers over the past year. I tolerated it at 50hz cause my old speaks would peter out by the high 40's completely, so I had to put them on a 50hz highpass to keep them safe. Sierra's roll down into the low 40's just fine at the listening position, and the sub props things up the rest of the way.

    2. Phase issues at a crossover point.

    See response on point one. I messed with phase at every point of the way a year ago when I did this. I didn't really see a point of going through that mess again. I tested localization the day the Sierra's showeed up, both at 80hz and 50hz. I could localize. Evaluated how low the Sierra's could go, set the sub accordingly.

    3. Running mains full range + sub.

    I don't see the issue with doing this. What am I missing?

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    When you change phase, you also change the room FR, as you have found out, so running MCACC would be a benefit.
    Curtis, can you explain? If I was just checking phase on a sub, I would only rerun correction software if I found that it was out of phase and I'm going to be using a new setting, correct?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    So I blitzed through the following after I got home tonight once I got some stuff for the evening squared away.



    AVR Crossover runs, speakers set to SMALL, HSU test cd sweeps, Toccata and Fugue in D minor (Don Dorsey, Bachbusters), "Roll Away Your Stone" Mumford and Sons, freshy fresh MCACC between settings changes:

    Run 1: 80hz, sub at 0 phase

    The subwoofer could be localized at the end of the Hsu track 22 sweep with ease. Track 23 was entirely localized until the 40hz reference beep. I reran this multiple times with my head at the listening position at several postures. Localization of the sub became difficult when I turned my head full right and put the sub behind me (sub sets left of the couch).

    T&F was just horrible. Midbass and pedals were dancing between front stage and near left.

    Roll Away Your Stone gave me a headache. The imaging of the upright bass kept dancing between in front of me and left of me. They ain't supposed to walk quite like that.

    Run 2: 80hz, sub at 180 phase

    Same as run 1, only now there are gaping holes in the frequency response around 90-100hz. Cancellation. This corroborates what I've been told that all MCACC does is equalize the mains then sets sub level. No phase. No equalization on the sub channel. It also presented holes in the FR down at 45hz.

    Run 3: 50hz, sub at 0 phase

    Things got... better. Now the localization on the sweeps waited until 8 seconds into track 23, but it was still bad. The Fugue still had very very confused staging in the pedals, as did the upright in "Roll Away Your Stone".

    Run 4: 50hz, sub at 180 phase

    Crap. Massive hole at 60-80hz + previous issues.


    Subwoofer crossover runs, speakers set to LARGE, subwoofer to PLUS (always on), AVR crossover set to 200hz (because you can't defeat it), subwoofer crossed over at various spots below 40hz on the sub itself (but only two runs really matter).

    Run 5: subwoofer off

    This run is important, because what it showed me from measurements was that at the listening position the Sierra's will play absolutely down to 40hz in my room. Get out of the sweet spot and it falters a bit, but if you're sitting in the good seat it's solid. All of the listening material sounded just fine, save for the low pedal pitches and low E rumbles from the upright.

    Run 6: subwoofer on, crossed at 30hz

    I couldn't localize the sub if I tried, and oh lord did I try. Sweep after sweep after sweep. Replay of the last minute of T&F after replay. The subwoofer, even ran slightly hotter than the mains, just vanished. And in fact, I am now running it slightly hotter (3db) than normal to give things a little more umph.


    Run 6 was done several, several times. I had to stop, though. The last half of that Hsu track 23 1) oscillates my drywall, and 2) oscillates my bowels.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleric View Post
    1. Low crossover of subwoofer due to localization.

    I've tested this six ways to Sunday at every crossover point I have available to me from 80hz on down on two different sets of main speakers over the past year. I tolerated it at 50hz cause my old speaks would peter out by the high 40's completely, so I had to put them on a 50hz highpass to keep them safe. Sierra's roll down into the low 40's just fine at the listening position, and the sub props things up the rest of the way.

    2. Phase issues at a crossover point.

    See response on point one. I messed with phase at every point of the way a year ago when I did this. I didn't really see a point of going through that mess again. I tested localization the day the Sierra's showeed up, both at 80hz and 50hz. I could localize. Evaluated how low the Sierra's could go, set the sub accordingly.

    3. Running mains full range + sub.

    I don't see the issue with doing this. What am I missing?
    1. I just haven't experienced localization like that. I wonder if it is because of the nearfield setup, and some kind of distortion or resonance from something nearby that may be the issue, or that the sub is not EQd.

    2. Here is a good article on setting up proper phase. They even use a Hsu subwoofer.
    http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blo...phase-easy-way

    3. One of the reasons for not running speakers fullrange with a sub is to relieve the speaker from having to reproduce low frequencies, which allows the driver to work on frequencies that are easier for it to produce...less work so to speak, and because the sub is better suited for those frequencies, less distortion, and high overall output. Also, by using a proper crossover, the crossover slopes are better integrated. The bit "but" is that no matter what you do, whatever sound better to you...then do it.
    Last edited by curtis; 09-11-2012 at 09:08 PM.
    -curtis

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaSheep View Post
    Curtis, can you explain? If I was just checking phase on a sub, I would only rerun correction software if I found that it was out of phase and I'm going to be using a new setting, correct?
    Anytime you change anything, I would re-run MCACC.
    -curtis

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    1. I just haven't experienced localization like that. I wonder if it is because of the nearfield setup, and some kind of distortion or resonance from something nearby that may be the issue, or that the sub is not EQd.

    2. Here is a good article on setting up proper phase. They even use a Hsu subwoofer.
    http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blo...phase-easy-way

    3. One of the reasons for not running speakers fullrange with a sub is to relieve the speaker from having to reproduce low frequencies, which allows the driver to work on frequencies that are easier for it to produce...less work so to speak, and because the sub is better suited for those frequencies, less distortion, and high overall output. Also, by using a proper crossover, the crossover slopes are better integrated. The bit "but" is that no matter what you do, whatever sound better to you...then do it.
    1. The sub is in the nearfield. It has to be. Some people like to call it WAF, but that's not what it is. It's the compromise to make the room work. Want a 5 cubic foot sub in a non-dedicated home theater space? It gets to be a coffee table.

    I have experienced localization like this. I've driven people batty with it for years (as well as them driving me batty) and it's provided me with massive frustration personally and professionally. In fact, the building I'm in now has poor framing in the second floor, where my office is, and the HVAC main conduit runs vertically between my office and the next. It puts out a steady 26hz at about 90db all day... every day. Not only that, but it causes resonance patterns in the framing under the floor that I can feel... all day... every day. Nobody else hears it. Nobody else feels it. Nobody believed me until I took a db meter and a basic RTA in and showed them.

    To me the floor resonates so badly that most times when someone walks down the hallway that makes up the spine of our area... I can tell you who it is even when they're 50 feet away based on the cadence and resonance patterns. My boss's movements are particularly indicative and it drives him nuts that I can tell him when he's left his office... and what cubes he visited while he was out.

    My wife's car's exhaust causes a 37hz resonance when she pulls into the garage at night. I can have my system up with my electronica going full tilt and still tell when she pulls in. Not when the garage door is invoked, that doesn't seem to get picked up, but her car coming into the garage I can pick up immediately. Some of that is the additive interference pattern, yes, but still.

    I can hear bass. I can localize bass. I've always been like this. The only time I really, really have issues doing it is highly reflective areas like empty churches, or on busy city streets. The reflections in the church mess with me on pedal tones, and diesel truck exhaust resonances are hard to pinpoint when it's bouncing off of 8 or so building facades to get to you.

    2. I understand how phase works. I understand how phase shifts relative to frequency being output. I also understand that I have two phase settings to play with. One's additive (0 degrees), one's canceling (180 degrees). 0 degrees wins out on every crossover point I've tried, be it on the sub or on the AVR.

    3. I understand what a crossover does. If the AVR had a 30hz crossover point... I'd use it. Happy to. That's exactly what I did in my cars in days of old (component set up front ran down to 35hz, sub in the back from there). It's not that I WANT the Sierra's sitting there dancing when sub-sonics come in. I don't. But 50hz is as low as my AVR will go, and I don't like it. And at the moment I am not running enough power through them that they exceed Xmax, even at my reference levels. I broke them in slowly and carefully and was meticulous in making sure I couldn't hurt them running them full range. I think I may have driven Mr. Fabrikant nuts on a couple of phone calls in the past year hammering on the ability for these to run full range safely.


    Anyway, I totally want people to roll with what sounds good to them as well. That is paramount. But, I know I'm weird. I know my views on this are totally bizzare. I've never had a reasonable place to run this by people and ask them to try it to get their take on it. It's not that I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the conventions in configuration, or how speakers actually work, that drives me to this. It's a full acknowledgement of it mitigated by what my ears tell me. I just want to see if anyone else notices anything if they try it.

    You have almost the exact same setup as me. You could give it a go as well.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    I think I am reading your posts from the wrong perspective.

    Maybe you just have excellent hearing/perception of bass frequencies.
    -curtis

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Maybe, or I could just be a bit of a loon.

    Honestly, if I had to sit down, think it out and hazard a guess, I would highly suspect I'm just really good at picking up timbre patterns, overtone series and harmonics. Unless you're rocking a pretty specific oscillator, test tones are not sine-wave-clean, and music definitely isn't. Also, materials in the room, and the material OF the room have sympathetic vibration harmonics and reflection properties. Seriously, the couch itself could be helping to tell me based on the differential of tactile vibration between the left side, and the right side. My butt could be that... um... sensitive?

    Either way, my brain does the math in aggregate and booya.

    Speaking of which, I'm back at work... man, I hope there are no long-term health issues with constant exposure to ELF. I can feel my chair moving. :P

    Anyway, is it possible to talk you into test driving this setup, Curtis? Just as a test? No biggie if not, I am just very interested in the evaluation of other like-minded-audio-nut-type-peoples.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleric View Post
    Anyway, is it possible to talk you into test driving this setup, Curtis? Just as a test? No biggie if not, I am just very interested in the evaluation of other like-minded-audio-nut-type-peoples.
    Well, I can't really replicate your setup.

    I have run my Sierra-1's fullrange, but without a sub...and they do sound excellent. I use Q plug B to take some bass reinforcement my room has, they also help integrate with the sub better in my room. I have also tried them small with the sub crossed at 40hz, 60hz, 80hz...I can not hear any discernible difference between the three, so I keep it at 80hz. In the past, with my Hsu sub, there was a difference in quality between 60hz and 80hz...at 80hz there was bit more overhang detectable, so I back down to 60hz.....no such need with the Rythmik.

    BTW....I am using a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 receiver (with external amplification) that has the Trinnov EQ and speaker placement correction system. It has set my surrounds, HTM-200SE's, crossover to 150hz. I was a bit worried by this, but it is working beautifully with no localization...but I do seem to get more "punch" in movies, but I have no way of comparing.

    I can't place my sub nearfield. Currently it is to the right of the right main, about 10' from the listening position.

    Knowing that, what would you like me to try?
    -curtis

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Oh I was just asking about trying the crossover frequency modifications. Specifically on 2-channel stereo + sub. I didn't want you to go re-arranging your room.

    If you've already done testing at all of those points, that's totally cool. For the record, the couple of months the sub was up in the farfield with the mains the issue was as noticable, but not as terrible. The soundstage would just shrink at times, not move. 50hz on the AVR was quite tolerable back then. The problem didn't become "HULK SMASH(tm)" until the new furniture + shroud to turn the sub into an end table, when it was then relocated next to the couch.

    Oh, I use the Q plugs as well, but I run plug A in the L/C/R for placement reasons. I'll try to get some pics up in the picture thread within the week.

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