Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 39

Thread: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Since I do not have the instrumentation to measure that outside of what MCACC does on my AVR, so I can only go by what it tells me. It does a phase check and never complains (I have wired a speak out of phase on purpose just as a check and it caught it). However, I cannot confirm it checks for phase mains vs. subwoofer.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, California
    Posts
    7,032

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleric View Post
    Since I do not have the instrumentation to measure that outside of what MCACC does on my AVR, so I can only go by what it tells me. It does a phase check and never complains (I have wired a speak out of phase on purpose just as a check and it caught it). However, I cannot confirm it checks for phase mains vs. subwoofer.
    Yeah....I don't think MCACC corrects for phase between the subwoofer and mains. It probably handles distance though.

    With an SPL meter, it is easy to check. Your Hsu sub only has 0 degree and 180 degree settings. Play a test tone at the crossover point (if 80hz, play a 80hz tone) flip between 0 degrees and 180 degrees, and keep the setting that is loudest on the SPL meter. Then run MCACC over again.

    For subs with continuously variable phase controls, do the same, but instead of the the switch, use the knob control and keep it where the SPL is the greatest.

    Make sense?

    I have my Sierra-1's crossed over at 80hz to the sub (Rythmik F15). No one can tell the transition between sub and speaker and vice versa.
    -curtis

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Hello and I will add my Advanced MCACC experience with now over 60 hours experimenting with standing wave measures and use of the Phase Control feature within my Elite receiver. First off, what receiver do you have? Is it standard MCACC or Advanced MCACC. Pioneer must feel that a Full Frequency Phase Control feature was beneficial by adding its own button on the remote and provided 20-20k phase control abilities. Now, my opinion even with capable mains is that you still need to set to small with lower crossover and allow the MCACC to correctly time align. Every move or change in location with your enclosures themselves requires a Full Auto MCACC run. Even with say your mains moved 3" out or whatever, Full Auto MCACC has to be re-run to reset all the timing. Without, sound will be muddy with a diffused soundstage and smeared center image. MCACC can be really powerful and really outperforms the standard Yamaha YPAO which I had over 50 hours tweaking the calibrations trying to break into the coding and algorithms. I purchased my Elite VSX-30 for the reason of MCACC, Expert MCACC, and the Professional MCACC all inclusive. Set your mains to small and let your HSU do its thing. If you have advanced MCACC and you run the multi point standing wave feature it will even correct phase and standing waves within the sub channels. 2 of my standing wave issues with my room is handeled within the sub channels and LFE, so it does work when calibrated correctly.

    Brian

    Reference: VSX-30 Elite receiver

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Every time I change the environment, I re-run MCACC as a baseline. Every. Last. Time.

    Change speaker stands in front? Done.
    Get new couch? Done.
    Get new coffee table? Done.
    Get new television console? Done.
    New banquette in the corner? Done.
    Borrow friend's B&W 6 series for some testing? Done.
    Unhook them an hour later? Done.
    New sub? Done.
    Move sub? Done.
    Remove stand-mounted surrounds and switch to in-ceiling installs? Done.
    Make a szechuan pork for dinner? Done.

    I kid on the last one (not on the others), but you see my point.

    The model is VSX-1120-K, which comes with Advanced MCACC. I run it Zone 2 (I only run 5.1 and the last two channels feed line outs for the dedicated rear patio amp), Symmetry.


    Oh, and Curtis. I fiddled with the phase on the sub tonight. Arbitrary volume level since we're just looking for cancellation and: 0 degree on the sub yielded 82db @ 31.5hz warble from the Hsu test CD and then 81.5db @ 40hz. 180 degree flip on the phase yileded 82.5db@ 31.5hz and 76db @ 40hz. So looks like 0 degrees (where I always have it) works just fine.

    Now... for the record... I didn't flip the phase and THEN re-run MCACC. I dunno that I see the point really, but I may do it over the weekend.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Ranger View Post
    Interesting discussion here, Alleric.

    I will admit I've never tried low crossover settings (~40 Hz or lower) or run the mains full-range with the sub filling in below. Perhaps I'm a traditionalist, but I have always approached subwoofer integration from the notion of compromise. E.g. by using a subwoofer, I can gain authority and control with low-frequency content, but I must compromise on (possible) localization and "speed" of the woofer compared to the mains.

    Since discovering Rythmik Audio servo subwoofers, my notion of compromise is nearly irrelevant. I have had great success integrating the sub/mains and it's difficult to pick out the sub now. I can choose just about any crossover point (within reason) and get superb integration. I believe that is a testament of the quality for both the Sierra-1 speakers and the Rythmik F15.

    With that said, I usually run full-range for most music and run the sub for most movies (80 Hz for mains/rears and 60 Hz for center). When I'm in the mood for loud and lively (> 85 dBC avg), I'll use the sub for both music and movies to ease the load on the amp/speaker.

    Anyway, you got me curious here, so I think I'll play around with the very low crossover options this weekend, as well as "fill in" mode.
    DR, were you able to find some time to test this? Very interested in others' takes on it.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Space Coast, FL
    Posts
    578

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Hi Alleric,

    I was able to complete only 50% of my testing that weekend and haven't got a chance to finish it yet due to workload. I have a contract-based job that can vary from week to week. It's been a monsoon recently.

    It appears to be slowing down again, so I'm hoping I can finish my testing this week/weekend. I do have some interesting results (to me) since I hadn't experimented with this configuration before.

    Stay tuned.
    -Jacob

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Understood. Work is actually rocking my world in fits and spurts here as well. I haven't even begun to sit down and do focused critical evals of my new speaks yet.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, California
    Posts
    7,032

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleric View Post
    Oh, and Curtis. I fiddled with the phase on the sub tonight. Arbitrary volume level since we're just looking for cancellation and: 0 degree on the sub yielded 82db @ 31.5hz warble from the Hsu test CD and then 81.5db @ 40hz. 180 degree flip on the phase yileded 82.5db@ 31.5hz and 76db @ 40hz. So looks like 0 degrees (where I always have it) works just fine.

    Now... for the record... I didn't flip the phase and THEN re-run MCACC. I dunno that I see the point really, but I may do it over the weekend.
    I missed this.

    Are the 31.5hz and 40hz crossover points?

    I would try the same procedure with 60hz an 80hz crossover points as well...compare and listen.

    When you make any change, you should run MCACC again.
    -curtis

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    85

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    I missed this.

    Are the 31.5hz and 40hz crossover points?

    I would try the same procedure with 60hz an 80hz crossover points as well...compare and listen.

    When you make any change, you should run MCACC again.
    The mains run full range. I'm using the lowpass dial on the VTF-3 MK4 to cross the sub over. That dial is currently smack dab in between the 30 and 40hz settings. Where is it exactly? No clue. Haven't measured. Tuned it by ear and db meter level settings with the mains, but haven't measured it against itself in many many moons to map the on-board crossover's slope.

    As for trying the same procedure at a higher crossover... if the 180 degree phase setting is already verified as working out of phase with the mains... why bother? Say I did that and reran MCACC, and it fixed it... so it's undoing the 180 out of phase that should've never been done to begin with. If memory serves though, it doesn't fix phase issues, but just points them out (ran into this when translating some in-wall wiring my electrician did for my surrounds last year).

    Also I futzed with the phase setting back when I was evaluating using the receiver's crossover at both 80hz and 50hz. 0 degree has always been where it's at in my room to not have cancellation, and at both of those crossover points I ran into localization issues. Mayhap the lowpass crossover in my receiver is just too shallow.

    Anyway, I can maybe see about doing this, but no clue when I'll get to it. Work, as previously stated, is kicking my butt, and then when I hit the house nightly I have a list of things to attend to a mile long.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, California
    Posts
    7,032

    Default Re: Subwoofer Crossover and Integration

    Got it.

    Running the speakers fullrange with a sub is not something I would do, but I certainly understand people doing it if they think it sounds better.

    You want the speakers and subwoofer in phase at the crossover point. If it is in phase at one crossover point, it does not mean it will be in phase at another.

    When you change phase, you also change the room FR, as you have found out, so running MCACC would be a benefit.
    -curtis

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •