Wisconsin GTG discussion

[curtis]

Dave, your honesty, objectivity, and your ability to explain the issues(or anything for that matter) are second to none. Thanks!

Now don't make me second guess my RAAL installation The father in law and I were extremely careful with the ribbons and made sure to connect the wires appropriately(hopefully right). Just to be safe, anything I should investigate to make sure?

Send them to me. I will check them out for you. I'll pay for the shipping too!

[monkuboy]

Well I must admit that while I regularly visit this forum, I am not an Ascend owner. However, I have nothing but the highest respect for Dave and his company - it is obvious to me from reading everything he and the forum members write that Ascend is a first-class operation and he knows what he is talking about.

I found it odd that there was such sloppiness at the GTG. You can't do much about the room since it is what it is, and the number of people who show up make it impossible for everyone to sit in a preferred section. But the use of amps that weren't even properly matched, as well as everyone listening at unreasonably loud volume levels with no one suggesting that perhaps a more realistic listening situation should be used, to me invalidates a lot of the impressions that were reported.

You would think that there would have been more care taken but then people get carried away in "crowds" (like the ending of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... at the time I sat there thinking, they all had their chance to escape yet they ended up getting drunk and falling asleep.. how could they do that? Well now I know.. people are not always acting in the most rational or reasonable manner).

[Dark Ranger]

I'm an idealist at heart. I'll admit it. For once, I actually thought this GTG would turn out as intended: a bunch of like-minded guys (and gals!) hanging out, just enjoying great music on a bunch of great speakers. What could possibly go wrong?

So to say I am disappointed is an understatement at this point.

I actually had to get up and walk away from the computer a couple of times. I got so fed up with the drama, and I didn't even attend the GTG! If I, a mere audio enthusiast, am deeply affected by what I'm reading, I can't imagine how Dave must feel about all of this. Yet here we have the soft-spoken representative driven to speak his mind about these things. It's bull***t like this that eats at you day after day. Honestly, I don't know how Dave can stay sane.

I think it's pretty obvious that Ascend customers are a different breed. I don't recall Brandon and Jay throwing mud and poisoning the soup, even when others seemed inclined to do so. Props to you gentlemen for staying cool. No doubt we all have strong feelings about current issues.

If there is one thing I wish to bang into everyone's heads "over there," it's this: folks, let's remember that we're talking about speakers. We're not discussing the cure for AIDS or ending starvation in Africa, we're nit-picking each other's opinions about loudspeakers! We are getting bent out of shape, because somehow our fragile egos are tied to whether or not our speaker "wins." Heaven forbid our luxury item not get the attention that it deserves.

Good riddance.

You know what? I think I'm going to stop by the beach tomorrow after work, and then call my parents to see how they are doing.

There are more important things in life than bickering over an event that was supposed to be fun, informative, and bring people closer together over a common interest.


Dave: I appreciate your honest and insightful remarks. Most of your customers remain very satisfied with you and your products. Loyalty and respect are sometimes hard to cultivate, but just look around you here in our forums...

Ascend is about much more than quality loudspeakers. I am a firm believer in that.

[sesquipedalian]

Since you are noticing this on only some recordings, the logical explanation is that it is the recording itself. We should never assume that a recording is properly balanced throughout the frequency bandwidth. There are very specific equalizations applied to recordings depending on what instruments the engineer wants to bring forward or highlight.



Yes, as we have discussed in detail, in your particular room -- a subwoofer is highly recommended However, adding a subwoofer will not affect the delicate balance between mids and highs.

See what happens when I send out a quick post without fully checking for clarity--Dave whips out facts.

I hope my second post clarified what I was trying to get across. If not, I apologize. I like to analyze other people's criticisms and experiences to see whether mine matches theirs. Since I acknowledged that the mid-high issue was the recordings, I meant to imply that the person who had a similar perception should think about things like the recording and listening position when making assessments.

I do wonder, however, even if a subwoofer does not actually affect the balance between mids and highs, could one's perception be altered so that it sounds as if this is the case even when it isn't. For example, if one turned off the woofers completely, wouldn't the mids and highs seem jarringly out of place without the full range? Or if one added a subwoofer and had the bass amped up a bit, wouldn't this leave the impression that the mids and highs were lacking? If so, then a balanced speaker seems essential. Yet, even with a balanced, neutral speaker, the room acoustics seem to play as much or a larger role in how a speaker sounds. This seems evident in several comments where people criticize the listening experiment due to the room and listening position. And based on our conversation, I myself had not fully realized how poor my room acoustics were (even with some acoustic treatment).

Again, I did not mean to stir up further controversy. I'm just a lowly audio-enthusiast wannabe who still has a lot to learn. Thanks for the response above and your patient detailed answers to my numerous questions via e-mail.

[Djoel]

With a grain of salt


DJoel

[petmotel]

With a grain of salt


DJoel

The average volume level was most assuredly not terribly loud, I keep hearing this statement from folks who were not there ? WTF is wrong with people that they need to second guess something they did not participate in?

Kudos to Dave for putting into perspective the great many variables that existed in this GTG, and one of the reasons I didn't bother to take notes, or comment in detail on the various speakers present.

One thing was evident, being that the speakers were playing into a volume equivalent to an entire small house, The smaller speakers with lesser volumes and cone area didn't stand much of a chance in producing low bass to fill the huge volume at the required volume level. Like the JTRs, this somewhat skewed the response of the Ascends, and to a bit lesser degree the Song Towers toward the treble side and probably contributed to a perception of being brighter than they are in truth. I think they probably sounded good to Archea, because he was close enough he was almost a nearfield listener.

My beloved Sierra Towers (actually Merrymaid's) did sound very much different in Terry's room, playing through his electronics. I'm very particular about my source material, there was some that was pretty good here, some that was not.

Comments from others aside, and although this is likely an example of preaching to the choir, I felt the Ascends had the most tightly controlled bass and midrange drivers in attendance (with the exception of the Sound Scapes which of course by now we know had a problem). I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that a well implemented three way system will out perform a similarly well implemented two way system.

The midrange of the Ascend Tower is a dedicated, neodymium powered, lightweight poly cone driver with optomized T/S parameters tweaked for it's use in an acoustically suspended, resonant resistant, bamboo enclosure that isolates the mids from bass resonances and back wave pressures. The bass drivers are also mission specific, T/S optomized drivers that also exhibit VERY tight driver control.

All of this hard work, and attention to detail is fleshed out by a sound characterized by extremely well controlled driver motion which translates to a brutally honest, balanced, incredibly detailed and accurate reproduction of the signal sent to it. To expect the same level of accuracy from a design compromised by woofers that must reproduce both the mid, and bass frequencies is unrealistic at best.

I don't begrudge anyone for their preferences, as mentioned in the GTG thread, I think people, to some degree, will bias their preferences based on the familiarity of what they listen to, using that familiarity as a basis for what sounds "accurate" to them.

[Djoel]

The average volume level was most assuredly not terribly loud, I keep hearing this statement from folks who were not there ? WTF is wrong with people that they need to second guess something they did not participate in?

Kudos to Dave for putting into perspective the great many variables that existed in this GTG, and one of the reasons I didn't bother to take notes, or comment in detail on the various speakers present.

One thing was evident, being that the speakers were playing into a volume equivalent to an entire small house, The smaller speakers with lesser volumes and cone area didn't stand much of a chance in producing low bass to fill the huge volume at the required volume level. Like the JTRs, this somewhat skewed the response of the Ascends, and to a bit lesser degree the Song Towers toward the treble side and probably contributed to a perception of being brighter than they are in truth. I think they probably sounded good to Archea, because he was close enough he was almost a nearfield listener.

My beloved Sierra Towers (actually Merrymaid's) did sound very much different in Terry's room, playing through his electronics. I'm very particular about my source material, there was some that was pretty good here, some that was not.

Comments from others aside, and although this is likely an example of preaching to the choir, I felt the Ascends had the most tightly controlled bass and midrange drivers in attendance (with the exception of the Sound Scapes which of course by now we know had a problem). I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that a well implemented three way system will out perform a similarly well implemented two way system.

The midrange of the Ascend Tower is a dedicated, neodymium powered, lightweight poly cone driver with optomized T/S parameters tweaked for it's use in an acoustically suspended, resonant resistant, bamboo enclosure that isolates the mids from bass resonances and back wave pressures. The bass drivers are also mission specific, T/S optomized drivers that also exhibit VERY tight driver control.

All of this hard work, and attention to detail is fleshed out by a sound characterized by extremely well controlled driver motion which translates to a brutally honest, balanced, incredibly detailed and accurate reproduction of the signal sent to it. To expect the same level of accuracy from a design compromised by woofers that must reproduce both the mid, and bass frequencies is unrealistic at best.

I don't begrudge anyone for their preferences, as mentioned in the GTG thread, I think people, to some degree, will bias their preferences based on the familiarity of what they listen to, using that familiarity as a basis for what sounds "accurate" to them.

Hey Jay

The Grain of salt reference meant, that at the end of the day there are allot of variables that determent the final sound of a pair of speakers. I've sent months changing,tuning, turning, pulling away the speakers moving them back to the walls, and a million other small tweaks, and not counting other changes on the AVR it self, and to make a blunt statement on how a particular speaker sounds from a GTG like this is pretty much unfair.

Hope I didn't offend you too much

Talk later
Dan

[petmotel]

Hey Jay

The Grain of salt reference meant, that at the end of the day there are allot of variables that determent the final sound of a pair of speakers. I've sent months changing,tuning, turning, pulling away the speakers moving them back to the walls, and a million other small tweaks, and not counting other changes on the AVR it self, and to make a blunt statement on how a particular speaker sounds from a GTG like this is pretty much unfair.

Hope I didn't offend you too much

Talk later
Dan

Dan, I don't think you have an offensive bone in your body! I wasn't responding to your comment, but agreeing with the grain of salt comment. After reading my response, I too thought it looked like I was responding to your comment, which was not my intent. Sorry my friend.

My comments, and observations are my opinions (except for the physical descriptions) and can be taken with a grain of salt.

Jay

[curtis]

Hey...too much salt is not good for you!

Joking aside, as we can see, so many variables at the GTG....and as Jay mentioned, familiarity seems to be the major key.

[Djoel]

Dan, I don't think you have an offensive bone in your body! I wasn't responding to your comment, but agreeing with the grain of salt comment. After reading my response, I too thought it looked like I was responding to your comment, which was not my intent. Sorry my friend.

My comments, and observations are my opinions (except for the physical descriptions) and can be taken with a grain of salt.

Jay

Thanks Jay

Just gotta say glad you were there representing, and left the GTG with your reasoning, and wits intact.

Dan