Sierra-2 Development Thread

[kclb1]

I have had a hard time understanding the differences between the NrT towers, Raal towers and the Sierra 2 with Raal, in a previous post the statement was made "the Towers RAAL and Horizon RAAL are even more transparent and even more resolving than the Sierra 2". Is that because the tower's have a separate midrange driver?

I listened to the Martin Logan Motion 35xt and the Motion 40, the Motion 40 sounded clearer in the midrange which I believe was due to the additional midrange driver.

So wouldnt the extra components within the NrT towers and Raal towers provide a fuller listening experience than the Sierra 2. Maybe someone could comment about these 3 models again. Thanks

[Sivar]

I have had a hard time understanding the differences between the NrT towers, Raal towers and the Sierra 2 with Raal, in a previous post the statement was made "the Towers RAAL and Horizon RAAL are even more transparent and even more resolving than the Sierra 2". Is that because the tower's have a separate midrange driver?

It sounds like you are asking an objective question but using subjective evidence such as use of the word, "fuller."
The towers:

• Are more efficient. At the same power, they should sound about twice as loud based on their formal specs.
• Have higher power handling capability, so they can accept more power while also sounding louder at the same level of power.
• Are larger and more expensive.
• Have a "full size" ribbon tweeter, whereas the Sierra 2's have a custom-made small version. (There are larger RAAL ribbons than even the Towers').
• Have a dedicated midrange driver.

How much does the dedicated midrange matter?
In theory (formal, not conversational use of "theory") the single mid/woofer of the Sierra 2 will lose midrange clarity while playing bass. this is for a variety of reasons.
A midrange should resolve this issue by concerning itself only with mids while the two dedicated woofers concern themselves only with bass.

In practice, I doubt the clarity is much better, because it is excellent on the Sierra 2, as one would expect from a truly high-end speaker.

My doubt is based on experience with the Sierra 2, but not the towers (my towers arrive tomorrow). I would be most surprised if I hear a stunning difference in clarity because, if I do, that means the Sierra 2's are significantly distorting mids.

[kclb1]

Thanks for the explanation, please let me know through this topic if you notice a big difference in midrange clarity with your new towers compared to your Sierra 2's.

[mcatucci]

Hello Sierra 2 owners. I am looking for some help and suggestions. I have read through all 140 pages of this thread over the last 4 days and had no idea the 2's were even a reality until I visited the site for another reason last week. I purchased the Sierra NrT's around 2.5 years ago and love them. Like many of you they are the best speakers I have ever owned and they seriously continue to bring a smile to my face almost weekly. I listen to music everyday for an hour or so...sometimes longer. I have to admit the Sierra 2's have really got me thinking of doing something I thought I never would: get rid of my NrT'S.

My application for these speakers is 100% audiophile quality music listening. They will never see a home theater or any other application other than 2 channel Hi-rez downloads, CD's and mostly vinyl. So with that said, will the 2's offer a nice leap over the NrT's? I actually came by Ascend to price the towers and that is when I discovered the Sierra 2. I cannot afford the Raal tower, but thought for music maybe the NrT tower would be a better choice. I'd like to hear what some of you think and Dave as well if time permits. For straight 2 channel music would you recommend the 2's or the NrT tower?

Lastly, I should mention my room size is roughly 9 x 13 and it is a home office. My current speakers sit on stands roughly a foot away from the wall and a foot away on the sides. The front of my desk is 3 feet from the speakers and my listening position is 5 feet away while sitting at the desk. So maybe towers would not be a good choice here as the desk will block the bottom half of the towers from my view. I am not sure if that affects sound or not?

Any help or advice on the right choice is REALLY appreciated.

Merry Christmas!

[essneff]

If you already have the Sierra 1's just upgrade the 1's to the Sierra 2 configuration.

[FirstReflect]

The Sierra-2 most definitely sound different than the Sierra-1 NrT. In a blind listening comparison, I have no doubt at all that most people would be able to consistently tell them apart.

Now, will that difference cause you to prefer the Sierra-2 or consider them "better" than the Sierra-1 NrT? In my opinions, yes. The faster transient response and lower residual energy of the Sierra-2 give them a sense of greater realism, in my experience. It depends on the recording, but there are more instances where the Sierra-2 fool me into thinking that I am not even listening to speakers, but rather that it is a real live person or instrument making sound in front of me. With the Sierra-1 NrT, I would rarely be fooled, and I could pretty much always tell that the sound was coming from a speaker. So I personally consider the Sierra-2 superior in their sound reproduction.

If you already have Sierra-1 NrT speakers, and you cannot afford the RAAL upgraded Towers, then the Sierra-2 Upgrade Kit is certainly the way to go: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch...t_Code=7SR2UPG

The Sierra-2 use the exact same cabinet as the Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 NrT. Dave F. went to great lengths and effort to make that the case. The instructions on how to do the upgrade are right here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...ons-with-video!

It is not difficult at all. You are swapping out both drivers and the crossover. The cabinet, port, and binding posts remain unchanged.

As for getting the absolute best sound quality from your 2-channel only setup, all that you need in addition to the Sierra-2 Upgrade Kits is a pair of excellent subwoofers. Over on the AV Rant Podcast, Tom and I talk almost every episode about the importance of bass management, using 2 or 4 subwoofers, and positioning those subwoofers optimally within your room.

But since many people - especially 2-channel only listeners - still don't believe us, here is another podcast with the director of the Home Acoustics Alliance where they describe all the same things that Tom and I consistently repeat.

I loved one way that Gerry Lemay described the use of subwoofers in a 2-channel only setup, which is that you're just bi-amping your speakers! Many, many 2-channel only fans have zero problem with bi-amping their speakers, and yet they balk whenever subwoofers are suggested. So if it helps to get anyone over the mental hurdle, I love just thinking of adding a pair of subwoofers to a pair of bookshelf speakers as bi-amplifying a pair of full range speakers! That really is all you're doing.

However, by having those subwoofer drivers separate boxes, you also have the freedom to place them in the best spots, rather than being forced to only ever have them directly below the midrange and treble drivers. As we describe on AV Rant, and as Gerry Lemay describes there on that Home Theater Geeks episode, deep bass sound waves are so long that they exceed the dimensions of rooms typically found in homes. In a 9 x 13 room, they will definitely be exceeding your room's dimensions. As a result, you are NEVER hearing direct sound in the deep bass. You are only ever hearing reflected sound. So the notion of needing the bass drivers to be directly in line with the midrange and treble drivers goes right out the window. Instead, the bass drivers need to be located within the room so that the reflected sound you are hearing is smooth, even, and free from massive peaks and nulls that are created when the reflected sound waves bounce back the way they came and either double up or cancel out on top of themselves.

In the end, what you want to do is position at least 2 subwoofers so that they are directly opposite one another across the room - as in, the mid-points of opposing walls (either the front wall and back wall, or the two side walls), or just otherwise opposite one another across the room (one in the front left corner, the second in the rear right corner. Or one on the front wall 3 feet in from the left wall, one on the rear wall 3 feet in from the right wall). By having two subwoofers across the room from one another, you create the most even distribution of deep bass sound waves, and that prevents the formation of these gigantic peaks and nulls in certain seating locations within your room.

Since yours is a small room and you are only concerned with music listening, I would recommend the HSU Research STF-2 subwoofers: http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

A pair of those mated to the Sierra-2 speakers will give you detail and extension that even the Towers RAAL (all by themselves) would not be able to reproduce. The issue is not how low or loud the Towers RAAL can play on their own, the issue is placement within the room. If the Towers are handling all frequencies on their own, you cannot position the bass drivers optimally within the room. They are stuck directly below the midrange and treble drivers, and they are both at the front of your room. There's no way around that.

But by bi-amplifying your speakers and having the bass drivers in separate cabinets, you are free to position those bass drivers where they will perform the best in your room, and you also free up your amplifier to only have to produce the midrange and treble frequencies, which will be handled superbly by the Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers.

Best of luck, and please come back and let us know how it all turns out for you!

- Rob H.

[mcatucci]

That's for the response so far gentlemen, especially the extent of yours Rob -much appreciated. I have a Velodyne Impact 12 sitting around that could be used with the Sierra 2. Is it critical to match the subs up or could I use my Velodyne with one of the HSU's you recommended?

[Kisakuku]

Is it critical to match the subs up or could I use my Velodyne with one of the HSU's you recommended?

Short answer - yes, go with two identical subs.

[Sivar]

I placed a home theater order (two Sierra 2's, two RAAL towers, and other stuff). The Sierra 2's came first. For my thoughts on them, see my review in the reviews forum.

Until the towers came, I was worried that I had wasted money on the towers -- the Sierra 2's sound as close to perfect as I could imagine. Then the towers came.

I haven't written a tower review yet, but I remember back to a thread where I asked why the towers do not use the new woven polypropylene woofers since I found them so impressive. The towers come with two tiny 5.25" woofers, whereas the Sierra 2's come with a 6" woofers. The extra .75 inches can make a significant difference when you consider that it's an area calculation, so you use radius squared.

Then I heard the towers and thought, "...Oh. I get it" (Actually my response was a bit different. Hopefully I'll get time soon to write a proper review).

In any case, I'll summarize by saying that in my opinion, the towers are far better for 2-channel music, and I'd probably take the non-RAAL towers over the Sierra 2. Mids are still the most important range, and the towers have a dedicated mid driver.
It isn't the mid though -- the towers bass is kind of shocking. I don't think they need a sub at all except for certain kinds of music (organ music played on a true full-rack organ or other bassy music).

So, you can do the same with a subwoofer, right? Sure, but the towers and their bass sound much more integrated to me. While I thought I had the subs positioned and set up well, the bass from the towers sounds more integrated. I don't want to use any vague audiophile BS terminology, but I'll just say that I prefer 2-channel music in "direct" mode, with subwoofers disabled. It just sounds better. The Sierra 1 and 2 are a great speaker, but they just don't have the range that the towers have.

[FirstReflect]

The problem I have with recommending using only the Towers and no subwoofers is that what you hear in the bass is a combination of what the speakers (or subwoofers) put out into the room and the reflections of the room itself.

Sivar seems to have lucked out in his particular room. I have three Horizon RAAL speakers, which perform very similarly to the Towers RAAL. Out in my living room, I feel similarly to Sivar - the bass really, really impressed me coming from just the Horizon RAAL speakers all by themselves. But in my smaller theatre room (about 12 x 13), the bass performance coming from only the Horizon RAAL on their own was not the same. My Center Horizon RAAL has a huge suck out at my seat right at about 70Hz. And my Left and Right Horizon RAAL speakers have either large dips or large humps in the 50-60Hz range, depending on which of my three seats I'm using.

What I am hearing in my theatre room is NOT THE FAULT OF THE SPEAKERS. This is the problem with attributing bass reproduction to only the speakers themselves. It changes drastically from room to room, setup to setup, even seat to seat.

Multiple subwoofers - properly positioned within the room (ie. across the room from one another) - is the only way to be sure that regardless of the room, regardless of the setup, and regardless of the seat, you'll hear smooth, even, uniform bass.

I'm happy for Sivar that the Towers are giving him all the bass he wants in his particular setup. But I can't agree with the advice that the Towers are responsible for what you ultimately hear in terms of the bass. The Towers can put the energy out into the room - they're nice a linear down to about 40Hz, and have useable output into the low 30's. But once that energy leaves the face of the speakers, it becomes the room's responsibility, and you cannot attribute what you hear to the speakers alone. It's the speakers PLUS the room.

For what it's worth, I do find the Towers RAAL to still be the superior speakers to the Sierra-2. I've written as much in my own reviews on this forum. But if Sivar is finding the bass from the Towers alone to be superior to what his subwoofers used to sound like, that indicates that the subwoofers are not optimally placed within his room, NOT that the Towers RAAL will sound better in the bass in every instance.

- Rob H.