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Thread: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    I would highly recommend a center channel for movies. it will take quite a bit off the amp load (which seems backwards but actually isn't) and increase relative volume levels ~+3 db while actually offloading amp duty quite a bit.. at probably ~20 watts total your system would run ~90db. 90db is loud in my opinion, which is above the level of when hearing damage sets in- so i'd keep that in mind.
    now if you want reference level action, you will have to integrate a power amp, or 2, and a sub, or 2. there's no way around that unless you plan on getting super efficient speakers made specifically for cinema or live stage (think klipsch, jbl, qsc... all of which are designed to be paired with amps and subs.)
    personally I'd start with a center channel, movies change quite a bit for the better with a center channel working. next would be a sub that does 25 hz reasonably (many do). then I'd consider a power amp, in my opinion any amp will do for movies, as long as it's quality construction and is quiet (fans to cool it.)
    good luck on the setup, i'm jealous of your nrt's!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Two real downsides to speakers like the SHO-10, first is size, those speakers are going to be SUBSTANTIALLY larger than the Sierra-1s (they pack a 10" woofer) and second is that their limited frequency response extends in both directions.

    They also are using horn tweeters which I personally find to be harsh and grating.

    As for your question about noise, there are 3 types of noise, source noise, which there is nothing you can do anything about, amp noise which is caused by interference from the power supply and other nearby electronics, and line noise which will only really affect the wires on longer runs.

    Higher efficiency speakers will make amp noise and line noise more apparent (signal noise is all just a matter of volume)

    The real question I suppose is how big is your listening environment going to be. And are you planning to build out a full 5.1-7.2 system?

    With 6 of those speakers, even at 30 feet away you could only turn your amp up to 15w before the speakers were at 105.1db and at 12 feet you could only turn the system up to 2.5 watts before you hit reference which would be severely limiting in terms of your volume control. Systems like that are really designed for huge screening rooms, not your average 20'x30' in house screening room.

    I don't really know why you would want such loud speakers in any normal sized room unless you are just trying to build a system to damage hearing ^_^.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Choirbass, I see you are fan of the amp idea too. lol Cool! I see what you are saying about cheapness and quality components. This is what drew me to Ascend Acoustics in the first place. I can tell that these speakers are... something else. I know that speakers really just spit back whatever you feed them. They need good sources. When I went from MP3 to FLAC on my portable player... wow... I never realized how much I was missing! I may go the amp route eventually. The main reason I purchased the Denon 3312 was for the preouts, to give me some ability to upgrade one step at a time later. I really like this receiver.

    Scape, ... interesting. I never thought about the idea of a center channel giving me more volume with less strain on the receiver (is this right?). So, you would recommend I purchase future upgrades in THIS order:

    1. Center channel
    2. Subwoofer(s)
    3. Amp

    So, with the center channel, I'm getting a bit more volume overhead. (plus the added benefit of expanded sound stage of course)
    With the subwoofer (powered I presume), I'm taking more strain off the receiver.. and then to round it all out I get an amp to completely relieve the receiver and "properly" power my speakers? This makes sense.


    RandomName, good info! Let me ask you some questions (and anybody else as well)..

    1. If I were to buy a center channel, would this somehow reduce strain on the receiver's amp? I'm not sure what 125 watt "discreet" means. I read what it means, but I also understand that it probably can't provide 125 watts to EVERY channel at the SAME TIME. Am I correct in this? How many channels can the amp provide 125 watts to simultaneously? 2? I guess what I'm asking is... okay, 125 x 2 = 250. So is my Denon only capable of supplying this much power simultaneously, or can it only provide 125 MAX per channel at any one time, and the amount it can provide overall (simultaneously) is well over 250? So, I guess I'm asking is this why having MORE speakers would give me more sound while relieving my receiver? Sorry for this confusing question. I hope it made enough sense. lol

    2. My speaker cables are those cables that have 4 wires in them. I combined the wires to create 2 larger wires at (effectively) 11 gauge. I have 40 foot runs of each cable going to my speakers. I do have some slack left. I don't want to cut the cable if I don't have to because I haven't fully decided how I'm going to run the cable, and I may need the extra. What is the best way to "store" this slack without causing some type of line noise or affecting the sound in some way?

    3. If I get a powered subwoofer and cross my speakers at 80 or 60hz or so, will this effectively increase my Sierras sensitivity, in a way? Or at least, reduce the amount of power required to generate a particular volume? My understanding is that bass is more power hungry than the high notes. Not sure though.

    Thanks!

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    you would recommend I purchase future upgrades in THIS order:

    1. Center channel
    2. Subwoofer(s)
    3. Amp


    Thanks!
    Yes, I would. I don't know many that would disagree (for home theater)
    From my experience, the center channel has become more important than the subwoofer in upgrade status, but the sub takes a close second-- ultimately you'll want both.

    I have a denon 1910 without the pre-outs, but one day I'll probably go that route and upgrade to separates.

    As far as the center channel relieving strain, yes I believe so and here's why:
    your amp runs 125 watts discrete (that word is so deceiving) and in reality is like 100+ watts total, it's not uncommon for a manufacturer to tout high wattage. to my knowledge the output stages for each channel are discrete, but there is one single transformer providing the power. you wouldn't want to run it at full power as you'd experience clipping and really bad distortion so instead you'd power roughly 100 watts or so, I have no idea what the ideal total wattage is before those two events begin happening and sounding worse. Let's assume your amp is 100 watts total power (across all channels); which I doubt that is even true too, from what I've experienced on my somewhat similar AVR. It will take less wattage to push the speakers louder if there are more speakers, to a very certain limit. Each time you add a speaker you tend to increase the perceived volume of your system, keeping that in mind the first few watts to power a speaker are it's most efficient because of the exponential power it takes to create volume from them.

    Speaker sensitivity is generally taken at 1 watt of power, and recorded from 1 meter away. A speaker of 87 db sensitivity means just that, and to get that speaker to 90 db (which is considerably louder, look up 'decibel loudness chart') you would have to push roughly 8-10 watts of power to it. Say you wanted 95db? that'd be close to 260 watts of power needed.. yea quite a jump in power.
    Luckily we don't need to rely on a single speaker cabinet to make things louder. In stage audio we simply stack more speakers up (well it's a bit more complicated than that), but by adding more speakers we have increased the volume (air pushing ability really) but not necessarily needed the same exact amount of power to do so. by adding a second similar speaker (let's assume for a second it's not stereo but the same exact source, mono) you have increased the relative decibels by around 3, and have essentially halved the power required to obtain the same amount of perceived loudness. this is because the first first watts of power to a speaker create quite a bit of loudness, and by adding speakers you have essentially increased speaker size and air pushing ability. an example is that 2 similar 10" speakers have roughly the same air pushing surface as a single 15" speaker.
    to obtain 90 db at with our two 87db/watt sensitivity speakers would require roughly 4 watts of power, and 95 db would be ~130 watts. keep in mind this is rather generalizing the whole system and assuming the signal is identical to each speaker, but i think it will give you an idea of what's going on.

    certain amps will have different characteristics, but in general you never run an amp wide open to obtain satisfactory volume, there will be too much clipping and distortion, among many other soon to be imminent issues. I generally try to get an amp that does 1.5x to 2x the power required for the venue.. once people listen to volume x, they want to push it to volume x++ after a while; so you usually want headroom.

    if you get a center channel you essentially have increased the volume by 3 db again (now obviously in dolby and other standards of stereo-surround for movies each speaker performs it's own channel information, but often times the channels share information). so while this exact math is not available, it's somewhat close for the front 3 channels. 90db is now perhaps only 2 watts total power (running a mono signal ofcourse). 95db might be 60-70 watts.

    Since stereo and surround are not mono signals, this does not hold up very exactly as there is much information in each channel that is different as well as shared-- and in I suppose would really matter on what the source is at this point. perhaps you could take the middle, and assume each additional speaker provides an average 1.5-2db db of sound reinforcement, with a range up to 3db total for each additional speaker if the speakers are producing the same signals. that is ofcourse totally made up guesstimates; but you can see 3 speakers up front greatly reduces need for wattage for a 90db output, which is loud, and beyond the point of hearing damage, luckily we usually don't sit 1 meter from our speakers. I think people forget how loud things really are..I started wearing ear plugs to movie theaters.

    beyond that, the center channel for movies is exceptionally important if the source material is more than 2 channels, as there is channel information that pertains to one of the important parts of a movie, dialogue. infact quite a bit gets put into the center channel. if you have a chance google movie theater screen speaker arrays. the center channels are some of the craziest, massive arrays in the whole theater, all for just that 1 channel.

    now ofcourse someone can take the standpoint that subwoofers are more important, as they do relieve quite a bit of strain on the main amp (assuming they're powered separately) as the lower frequencies take more power to produce; but if it were me, having realized what i know now for my stereo, I would get a center channel first. mostly because subwoofers, even cheap ones, will suffice for many people for movies. I guess you should ask yourself how much you are willing to spend.

    one last thing to consider, and perhaps most important of all is your room setup. are the speakers placed properly, is the seating close enough? there is quite a bit that goes into a good listening room. one thing to consider is that every additional meter of distance reduces the perceived volume by 6db, roughly.
    so if your speaker is 87db/watt and your seating is 10 ft away, it will be 75db at 1 watt of power, which is still rather decent for volume's sake. two speakers would be roughly 81db for the 1 watt of power at that distance. i think this gives you enough to work on to make your own decision, but i'm sure someone will chime in with some more to the point conclusions and examples to help you make a good choice; either way it sounds like you already have with your sierra's

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Quote Originally Posted by j0nnyfive View Post
    I have the Sierra-1 Nrt speakers sitting in my small apartment living room right now. They do sound exquisite.
    -Jonathan
    Jonathan,
    I'm glad you decided to keep your Sierra's. When the time comes to use them in a home theater at adequate volume levels, I think you'll find them sufficient.

    I'd hold off making judgements until you have a true multi-channel setup. I agree with your acquistion plan: center channel, then sub, then amplification. I'd get surround speakers before amps if your setup allows. I suggest the Sierra Center, although the 340SE center would work welll with your Sierras.

    When you get surrounds you could also go with Sierras, if you could afford it. An alternative would be to use 170's or even HTM 200's. I use 170's for side surround and 200's for rears. Pans are seamless. BTW, I'm running 340's across the front.

    If you're just using a stereo pair for movie watching, you'll be astounded by a 7.1 system. My wife, who has put up with my audio hobby since we started dating in high school, has never expressed much interest. Now that we have a dedicated home theater, she has become quite the audio snob. She much prefers the audio in our HT over the local cineplex and doesn't like to watch TV at friends' houses.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    I agree with the center and subwoofer as well! I would also recommend the Sierra center over the CMT-340. I started with the 340's and upgraded to the Sierra's and for a while used the 340 center. I found the Sierra center integrates better and, since its a matched sensitivity, the balancing was better.

    I moved my 340's to the back surrounds and in my experience the Sierra's (NRT 4 me) are the best for movies or music. We listen to both and movies have a ton of music in them. I bet I say weekly to my wife how much I love my sound system!

    My living room/dining room/Kitchen combo is 36 X 32 and I have no problem with enough sound. My sub (VTF-3 Mk 2) is a big part of the total mix and makes movies and TV intense!

    Good luck!
    Michael

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Scape,

    Thank you very much for that detailed response! I think I'm starting to understand "speaker math" a bit more now. lol Let's see if this makes sense:

    1 speaker n @ 87 decibels = 1 watts.

    1 speaker n @ 90 decibels = 2 watts. (double wattage per 3 decibels)

    2 speakers n @ 90 decibels = 2 watts (1 watt per speaker).
    3 speakers n @ 93 decibels = 3 watts.
    4 speakers n @ 96 decibels = 4 watts.
    5 speakers n @ 99 decibels = 5 watts.

    So our demand for wattage becomes more linear instead of exponential, in a way? Assuming that a "mono" signal is being sent to each speaker, am I understanding this correctly? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but am I in the ballpark? lol


    DougMac,

    I really wish I didn't live in this tiny apartment, I am so stoked at the idea of having a sub and surrounds and center. Geeze... With what you said though, about reserving judgment until I have a multichannel setup... I may have to wait until I move out of this apartment before I do this, unfortunately. Actually, this leads me to my next question which I will ask in a second...

    MichaelG,

    I agree. I think my center will have to be identical to my mains. I simply won't have anything less than that! I'm pretty dogmatic when it comes to having a center channel that is identical to my left and right channel. I want as perfectly seamless panning ability across the front as I can get! This also leads me to my next question..

    Questions for everybody/anybody:

    1. I am using a projector (Mitsubishi HC4000) that is DLP and doesn't have a "screen shifting" function. The screen can get larger or smaller, but I cannot scoot it up or down the wall. I cannot have my center channel level with my other 2 speakers. It will HAVE to be practically sitting on the carpet floor, tilted up. So my speaker configuration across the front will look something like this: - _ - 2 speakers high, 1 speaker low. Now... is it STILL worth it to buy a middle channel if I am constrained by this? Would the "phantom center" concept be better for me here? Again, I'm thinking of my apartment here, so I do not need any loudness here. But I DO like the idea of sound coming from the middle... but it would be middle, but lower... hmm..... did I just answer my own question? lol

    2. I would like surrounds, but would it be worth it to get surrounds without a sub? I'm thinking since the surrounds won't be able to go as low as the Sierras, are they basically dependent on a sub, since a sub's main job is to produce bass which is non-directional?

    I hope you guys don't get any ideas about charging me for consulting fees! lol Thanks again!

    p.s. I would really like to have surrounds at least, but I'm afraid they wouldn't work well without the sub. What do ya'll think? (Yes, I am from Arkansas! Woohoo!)

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    doubling the power will up the speaker volume by +3db, I think I may have mentioned +1 db earlier
    an additional speaker will in theory provide up to 3db sound reinforcement. but as far as having multiple speakers, it gets tricky because of possible phase cancellation from the speakers are at different locations, as well it's also an exponential game; the center would still give about 1.5db increase, but that may not be exactly enough to be perceived by you.
    each additional meter of distance is about -6db of volume loss
    I'd also stress that +10db is going to be perceived as twice as loud, to me that's really friggin loud, haha

    here's a decent site i just googled: http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html

    I never read where you described your room, but if you're trying to fill a very large room, extremely loud volume would probably not be possible unless you ran multiple sierra's in series and parallel and built some sort of stack (someone on this forum has! wish i had the link, it was awesome)
    so -10db would seem half as loud..

    with all that said, I think 85+db at the listening position is more than enough for most of the people out there, excluding those with hearing damage or who want to 'be in the movie' and make gun shots almost lifelike (and damaging hah.) i'm guilty of this too.


    I'd assess your room setup, and probably place the speakers closer to your seating if possible (atleast within 10ft of listener) because that's probably best not to mention free, I'd also play with which settings you're using on your receiver. Then I'd begin putting money away for a center channel and eventual sub.
    Last edited by scape; 08-03-2011 at 05:40 AM.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    Scape,

    Ahhh... thanks for that link! My math was wrong. It's still exponential with 2 speakers giving you a 3db increase, but then it takes 4 speakers to get you the next 3db, but then due to phase cancellation, etc. So there is a point of diminishing returns at play, and also the fact that different channels will have different information being played over them, etc. So, no free lunch. lol

    I've seen a lot of mention of hearing damage in this thread, and I really appreciate these warnings, more than everybody knows. I am also concerned about my hearing. I'm afraid that I came across in my original post the wrong way when I was exaggerating about "insane" volume levels. I'm not really a person who likes to listen to things loud for the sake of them being loud. Having said that, however, I have never really thought of a movie theater as being "extremely" loud. And, considering how much time I actually spend watching movies (which isn't TOO too much), I wouldn't think that my exposure time would be significant enough to cause damage. I mean, the movie doesn't make sounds at 105db the whole time you're watching it, does it? I figured that was just the peak. I think I read somewhere that an ACTUAL gun blast is like 150db. And I don't own a motorcycle but it said the sound of the engine is like 100db. Granted this wouldn't be for every motorcycle or every gun for that matter. But putting this into perspective, I didn't think watching a movie for a limited amount of time (I watch about 2, maybe 3 per week) would be too bad, considering I probably wouldn't even listen @ reference level most of the time, anyway.

    Also, my desire of loudness isn't directly because I WANT to listen to it that loud all the time, but more of a desire for the ABILITY to do so, if I choose. Most of the time, I would listen to it at a lower volume level. But if I have some company sometime, and we want to listen at "theater" levels, I would like to be able to accomplish this without the speaker pooping out on me due to compression or whatnot. Like an earlier poster said, "overhead is good."

    I'm thinking that I'm just going to stick with 2 Sierras and nothing else while I'm in this apartment. I'll wait UNTIL I get a new place to decide what I'll need. I DO like the center channel idea, but if I can't properly place it evenly with the other 2 speakers, I feel I may be defeating the purpose of having a center channel (in a way). I think if I cannot create a seamless sound stage (having all speakers even across the front), then I do not want to break the illusion caused by my phantom center. However, one could argue that listeners sitting off-axis may benefit from having a center channel, even if it isn't perfectly placed. I just don't know if it would be worth it.

    Thanks!

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

    only reason i mention hearing damage is because I found out i have some, in the 4-5khz range, which is the range our ears are most sensitive to. it's rather common, and luckily my damage is pretty superficial; i don't want it to get worse. it's not that i have bad hearing, in fact quite the opposite, i can hear a very extended range of hearing, and surprise people what i can actually hear and mention to them-- they think i'm crazy until 20 minutes later realize they hear some noise or whatever it may be. i have this deal of walking into a room and knowing the tv is on, even if it's muted; the high pitched sequel actually drives me bonkers and i notice that most people don't even notice it. i'm sure some people here have the same deal.
    i believe it only takes 15 minutes of 85+db to cause some form of hearing loss. whether it be permanent, i don't know. but i am with you, spirited volume levels are fun.
    i battled the center channel issue for a while myself, and infact let my center gather dust for a year; but i built a center channel stand and placed it in a great location (audibly) and it made the difference for my room. i typically use dolby pl2 music mode, as that keeps things more on the stereo sides and less in the center; and really helps for listening to music i think. it also took quite a bit of tinkering on the receiver to get the right volumes for each speaker to sound good to my ears- but then again my room setup is whacky, living in an efficiency is only good for one thing: saving money
    luckily ascend has a return policy, maybe you should check it out. if you're not big on the center channel idea, i do strongly suggest a sub-- quite a bit goes into making a sub sound good in the room with the other speakers; but it's definitely worth it, especially for movies.
    good luck!

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