Sierra-1 Nrt vs CMT-340 for DEDICATED Home theater

[j0nnyfive]

Hello everybody on this forum who reads this!

If I'm breaking any forum rules by creating this thread or anything like that, I apologize. I'm not very experienced with forum posting. I've been reading for a while (weeks now), but I can't seem to find the answers and I was hoping that someone with experience could help me.

I have the Sierra-1 Nrt speakers sitting in my small apartment living room right now. They do sound exquisite. However.... and this is a really big, nagging, however for me... I have packed them back up and am ready to send them back... with a tear in my eye... ONLY because of their sensitivity. I originally believed that a speaker that could excel in music could EASILY excel with movies. I'm beginning to change my mind about this.

After weeks of researching this stuff, I've finally figured out that there tend to be 2 camps of people in all these speaker boards. The home theater people, and the music people. (I'm oversimplifying here I know, but just play along). Music people tend to say "These speakers are awesome, and they will work for home theater too!" Movie people tend to say "These speakers are awesome, and they will work for music too!"

Music People tend to value: Speakers having lots of frequency range and subtle clarity, imaging, etc.

Movie People tend to value: Lots of volume headroom (dynamic range?), clear dialogue, directivity(?)..

Anyway, as a newbie coming into this sound stuff, this distinction isn't very apparent at first because the 2 camps are both sorta acting like they know what's best for the other side. lol But it's only because everybody can only draw from their own personal tastes and experiences, I know, so it's all good.

As a newb.. I'm asking for advice from ANYBODY here. Even if you're fully into the music camp, or fully into the movie camp, or both. I'd like to just know your thoughts.

I'm wanting to buy 2 speakers that will eventually become my left and right mains for my home theater when I move into a house (unknown when). I want these speakers to not only have good sound quality, but also be able to reach "reference level" of... 105 db I think? But, without "strain" (in whatever sense that may be).

I'm more into home theater than music, so keep that in mind. Would the CMT-340 se's be up to the job? I am OPEN to the idea of keeping the Nrts if they can somehow work. But let me end this now by giving you my own personal PRO and CON style anecdote of the Sierra:

PRO: I was sitting in my little chair listening to some Clapton, and holy freaking ZOMG it sounded like he was standing in my room right between the speakers looking down at me. These speakers are INSANELY CLEAR. I have never experienced this before!

CON: I was watching Star Wars A New Hope, at 3:00 a.m. in my apartment with the volume turned OVER half way up on my receiver and I was in NO WAY afraid that it would wake the people living above me. This made me worry. I was like, how can it be this quiet with the volume of my Denon 3312ci turned over half way up? Cognitive Dissonance out the wazzoo here.

Thanks guys and gals! I really do appreciate any wisdom you can offer this newb. I am willing to learn whatever you are willing to teach! Thanks again.

-Jonathan

[Tower]

if u like ascend speaker why don't you buy towers? u can paid 1300 for sierra 1 Nrt , 600$ more than you won't feel sorry in the futures? speakers last over 7 years ( 7 years warranty ).
i still have **** , definitive technology towers. when i bought them i thought i need speaker for movie and games only but i was wrong, think about how many good movie release every week ? can you watch old movie every night?.
After Projector, dual svs ultra 13 , room full treated.... every times i turn music on i cry ... cry because i was listen to movie speaker fan boy said that speakers good for movie will good for music
Never heard or own ascend speakers before but i count every day for my sierra towers, Dave don't let me down

[RandomName]

Hello everybody on this forum who reads this!

If I'm breaking any forum rules by creating this thread or anything like that, I apologize. I'm not very experienced with forum posting. I've been reading for a while (weeks now), but I can't seem to find the answers and I was hoping that someone with experience could help me.

I have the Sierra-1 Nrt speakers sitting in my small apartment living room right now. They do sound exquisite. However.... and this is a really big, nagging, however for me... I have packed them back up and am ready to send them back... with a tear in my eye... ONLY because of their sensitivity. I originally believed that a speaker that could excel in music could EASILY excel with movies. I'm beginning to change my mind about this.

After weeks of researching this stuff, I've finally figured out that there tend to be 2 camps of people in all these speaker boards. The home theater people, and the music people. (I'm oversimplifying here I know, but just play along). Music people tend to say "These speakers are awesome, and they will work for home theater too!" Movie people tend to say "These speakers are awesome, and they will work for music too!"

Music People tend to value: Speakers having lots of frequency range and subtle clarity, imaging, etc.

Movie People tend to value: Lots of volume headroom (dynamic range?), clear dialogue, directivity(?)..

Anyway, as a newbie coming into this sound stuff, this distinction isn't very apparent at first because the 2 camps are both sorta acting like they know what's best for the other side. lol But it's only because everybody can only draw from their own personal tastes and experiences, I know, so it's all good.

As a newb.. I'm asking for advice from ANYBODY here. Even if you're fully into the music camp, or fully into the movie camp, or both. I'd like to just know your thoughts.

I'm wanting to buy 2 speakers that will eventually become my left and right mains for my home theater when I move into a house (unknown when). I want these speakers to not only have good sound quality, but also be able to reach "reference level" of... 105 db I think? But, without "strain" (in whatever sense that may be).

I'm more into home theater than music, so keep that in mind. Would the CMT-340 se's be up to the job? I am OPEN to the idea of keeping the Nrts if they can somehow work. But let me end this now by giving you my own personal PRO and CON style anecdote of the Sierra:

PRO: I was sitting in my little chair listening to some Clapton, and holy freaking ZOMG it sounded like he was standing in my room right between the speakers looking down at me. These speakers are INSANELY CLEAR. I have never experienced this before!

CON: I was watching Star Wars A New Hope, at 3:00 a.m. in my apartment with the volume turned OVER half way up on my receiver and I was in NO WAY afraid that it would wake the people living above me. This made me worry. I was like, how can it be this quiet with the volume of my Denon 3312ci turned over half way up? Cognitive Dissonance out the wazzoo here.

Thanks guys and gals! I really do appreciate any wisdom you can offer this newb. I am willing to learn whatever you are willing to teach! Thanks again.

-Jonathan

Well first off, honestly, if you think your 3312 is a powerful amp then you are crazy. (I have the same receiver) It's not a weak amp by any measure, but due to the way volume works, it takes a great deal of power to increase volume (the watts must double for each 3db increase)

That said, what volume level are you talking about 3312? because if you are literally talking about -30 - -40, then yes, your system is going to be extremely quiet.

I keep my 3312 at around -20 for videos, but if you don't think when you get up -10 or higher that it isn't extremely loud, then perhaps you have something wired wrong (I can't even bring myself to go past -5 because it's so obscenely loud)

Have you run audyssey? Are you sure you have configured the receiver to recognize it only has stereo speakers? What's the source you are using? Is it bitstreaming?

Also, how big is your room?

To be honest though, no bookshelf speakers will really have any risk of waking any neighbors at levels which are listenable comfortably. Only really low frequencies will pass through walls easily.

What it sounds like you really need is a subwoofer. That's the only way you are going to get that gut vibrating wake all of your neighbors sensation.

Now if you are really turning the volume of the 3312 up to -20 - 0 and it's still not loud enough for you, then the only way you are going to get the volume you are looking for is to get a power amp that can really push them. Keep in mind the Sierra's are rated up to 200w continuous, 400w peak. Your 3312 will never hit those power levels.

I've seen people using a pair of these:

http://emotiva.com/upa1.shtm

That's probably the CHEAPEST option to actually fully drive the speakers, other options would be NAD or Rotel.

Honestly I'm considering either:

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm for 100 more, you get 300w per channel (headroom is your friend)

or

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm for same price you get 3 channels so you have the expandability for a center channel though the power likely won't be quite as clean as a pair of monoblocks.

[Sam1000]

Do you use subwoofer for movies? Consider crossing them over at 80htz with a good subwoofer like Rythmik.

[choirbass]

I do second RandomNames' comments about the amplifier you're using not being sufficient enough for earbleeding spl, though you werent exactly asking for that lol. Not owning that particular amp myself, a quality amp will definitely open up your sierras nonetheless. To where your current concern should no longer be an issue at all.

[j0nnyfive]

Wow everybody! Thanks for the timely response! I'm going to just respond to everyone at the same time here. (Just pretend I'm quoting everybody). lol I'm such a forum newb.

First of all let me tell you a little about me and about what I know and don't know. I'm "new" to this sound stuff, but I'm not without some basic knowledge.

RandomName, I may be crazy, but I do not in any way think the 3312ci is anywhere remotely powerful. Even if my speaker needed 100 watts at some point in time, doubling that would only give me 3db more volume, quadrupling that would give 3db more, and so on, like you said.

To give you some context, my whole idea behind buying really high quality speakers was that I figured that as long as they were high quality, that would give me that whole "authentic" cinema experience that I crave. Part of that experience that I'm after is being able to hear the sound just as loud as I would in a commercial cinema. I did not realize until AFTER I purchased these beautiful little speakers (that I have finally decided to keep, btw), that a speaker that is deemed "high quality" would NOT necessarily be designed for that type of volume output. I figured that it wouldn't have to be as big as a cinema speaker simply because I would be sitting so much closer to it.
Well... I was only partly right.

I just recently learned that a cinema speaker should be able to play such that the listening position can receive sound at a maximum of 105db from each speaker. Probably higher for subs, not sure. Now notice I said maximum, not all the time. So for the loudest bangs and whatnot, 105db should be achievable CLEANLY. No compression or symptoms of the speaker straining in any way.

To my understanding, this requires not only power, but a speaker with a very high efficiency/sensitivity that is designed for this type of use. Most home speakers are NOT designed for this type of use. Most SANE speakers are not designed for this type of use. lol

I'm not sane.

Ran Audyssey. I think I prefer Audyssey flat without dynamic equalizer or dynamic volume. Set speakers to large, stereo, recognizing only my two speakers.

I think you did answer some of my questions tho concerning how loud the receiver should be set at. Yes, at -20 is about where I put the volume. I was startled that this is what it took. It does sound very nice at this volume, and I think I've decided that this is all I need because of my apartment living situation.

Sam1000, although I would love to be able to use a sub, my apartment living situation prevents this. The Sierras have plenty of bass for me in this small room. The reason I was concerned about volume being too low was because I wanted to invest in a pair of speakers that I would eventually use as my two fronts in my future home theater. For this apartment, the volume is more than enough, and so is the bass.

Tower, lol I like the name. The reason I didn't buy the tower is because I don't think I would feel comfortable purchasing a third tower to use as a center or even the center channel. I'm not made of money. I plan on using an acoustically transparent screen with 3 identical speakers behind it, in the future.

choirbass, I think getting amps in the future may be a pretty good idea.

Here is my current solution.. my theory..

1. Keep the Sierras (which I have decided to do) because of their capabilities of clarity, neutrality, and extension at "sane" volume. At least I have a pair of really nice music speaker as well! They have that "totality" in one speaker that music lovers tend to crave, and I really think this is a nice thing too. They give plenty of sparkly highs and incredible lows for this small space. I don't plan on buying surrounds for this apartment because I simply can't find a place to mount them. It's a weird living room setup. Very small as well.

2. In the future when I am not restricted by volume and bass limitations, I'm going to get my hands on some obnoxious speakers rated at least 97db sensitive and put them all around. I don't believe these speakers will have the qualities that the Sierra does (no easy feat), but they will be designed for high volume with plenty of headroom. They WILL require subs so I will get those too.

But, this is where I am right now. Anyone have experience with highly "dynamic" speakers? Horns, waveguides, whatnot? I'm wondering if anyone here has experience in this arena. I'm sure Dave probably knows a lot, and I would love to hear his take as well! You may wonder why I'm not simply asking OTHER forums this question is because I'm trying to establish some context. I'd like to hear from Ascend owners who ALSO dabble in super dynamic speakers as well. Comparisons, issues, concerns, experiences, opinions, ideas, whatnot.

For anybody who reads this: If you are on the fence about purchasing the Sierra-1 or Sierra-1 Nrt for music OR home theater, I cannot recommend them highly enough. They are a STEAL for the sound quality you are getting. I don't want this thread to dissuade you from buying simply because I want more volume. They are NOT "quiet" speakers. Its just that I'm after INSANELY LOUD speakers. I'm not a normal person, k? I'm keeping my Sierras even though they don't meet my insane volume needs, because they sound so hypnotic to me. I can't quite explain it. Sorry for the novel!

[RandomName]

I just want to point out that if you actually maxed out the power capabilities of the Sierra-1, you could in fact hit 105db peaks (or even constant)...

I don't quite understand WHY you would want this, but based on the efficiency of the Sierra-1 which is 87db.

2 Sierra-1 at 200w at 12 feet the SPL would be 104.8db. The Sierra-1s can also handle peaks of up to 400w (clean/unclipped) which would give an spl of 107.8db.

Now where it gets far simpler to reach reference volume, is when you add in multiple speakers. 6 Sierra-1 can reach 105db at 20ft with just 65w.

At 100w at 12 feet, your SPL on the Sierra-1 can go from 101.8 to 105.3 just by adding a center channel.

Now of course this plays into how the audio was mixed, but in general the really loud sounds like explosions are mixed across all channels partly for this very reason (and because lower frequency sounds aren't really directional at least by human perception because the waves are larger than the distance between our ears O_o)

Now if you were to put the speakers it multi-out stereo (where it sends the same stereo signal to all the speakers), and they were all running on amps that did 200w stable, your SPL would be 114.3 and the 400w peaks would actually hit 117.3. Keep in mind that no matter how clean your source and amps and speakers are, listening at levels like this for anything more than occasional peaks will damage your hearing.

Regardless, my point is you can hit reference volume with most any efficiency speaker if it's well enough made, personally I would rather have a speaker with 85-90db efficiency, and drive it properly, than try and use a 95db efficiency speaker with an integrated amp. The biggest problem is that with higher efficiency equipment, you start opening the door to amp noise. There is quite literally NO benefit to high efficiency speakers OTHER than needing less power to get there, but between buying another set of speakers and driving them with the same subpar amp built into our 3312 or buying a decent power amp and using the same speakers, to me it makes more sense to go for the amp. As while both might make your system louder, methinks the dedicated poweramp would make it sound better. (Plus it would give you headroom which is always a good thing and more freedom to upgrade from a receiver to a dedicated pre-pro setup later)

[flyingturtle]

Yeah, I can relate. I love my Sierras , in fact my friends are probably sick of me talking about how good they sound. I've literally forced lots of people to come over listen to my speakers and I found out the hard way that not everyone cares about good sound as I am. LOL. But the ones that do are really impressed. (Is it really that weird of a hobby?)

Anyway, my Sierras are in a 2-channel music system and I've really been neglecting my other system, my HT system, and I too heard good things about the 340SE for HT use, so I decided to upgrade one of my speakers, my center channel to a used 340SE center and while I was expecting good things, I was more than just satisfied, I was really impressed. The clarity and imaging of the 340SE was far better than my previous speaker (Athena) and it even made my L/R mains, Epos monitors, sound better as the front soundstage became more clear and the details on the highs from the 340SE was a better match with the metal tweeters of the Epos monitors. The 340SE is a very nice speaker, especially for it's price. If asked, I'd definitely always pick the Sierra over the 340SE as the better speaker, especially for music, but that 340SE center is darn impressive. Makes me want to get a pair of 170SE now to see how they sound. Eeek...I'm becoming an Ascend junky, I already have a pair of HTM 200SE coming my way to upgrade my surrounds.

Anyway, I hope that doesn't make you second guess your decision. =)

On the flip side, I did inquire about the availability of new 340SEs and I was told that they would not be in stock till mid-August. So that may compel you even more to keep your Sierra-1s.

[j0nnyfive]

Awesome... thanks for the responses guys! Much, much to think about. I love thinking about this stuff. It's so new to me. Anyway, down to business..

Flying Turtle, it's a disease isn't it? lol I've been working at a hot factory job for the past 6 months, 7 days a week, and on many days, 10 hours per day. I'm single, live like a vampire (up all night, sleep all day, work in the evening). This isn't my ideal existence, but it will get better soon. Anyway, I said all that to say that all this speaker research and listening is keeping me healthily insane. It gets me through. You don't have to worry about changing my mind about keeping the Sierras. I'm decided now. I really like how they can draw you in with really subtle, shimmering, sparkling, teeny tiny sounds and then punch you in the face with a bass note. lol Like, you thought I was this little bitty speaker didn't ya? BOOM!!

RandomName, thanks for all your good info! I'm digesting it and thinking about it. What you say does seem to make good sense. That amp could set me up for the future as well couldn't it? I'd be ready for the pre-pro later.. hmm... HMMMMMM........

Now, I have a question about what you said about high efficiency "equipment". What did you mean by equipment, and integrated amp? This, I wasn't considering. What type of equipment were you thinking of? And by amp noise, what do you mean? Amp noise coming through the speaker? Amp noise coming from inside the speaker? Or are you saying that a highly sensitive speaker would too easily reveal flaws in "lesser" amps, thus requiring me to upgrade to a better amp anyway?

If this isn't against any type of forum policy, let me ask everyone their opinion or impressions about a speaker I'm curious about: Chase Home Theater's SHO-10. I think the sensitivity is like 97db? Now, granted, it absolutely REQUIRES a subwoofer due to limited extension, but... with sensitivity that high, there's got to be some catch somewhere. I'm pretty dang sure it won't have the finesse of the Sierra or most likely even the 340, but I'm so curious about the sound this would make. Ugh.. I have the disease now I'm afraid.

If you know nothing about that speaker, that's okay. I'm more interested in knowing more about that "type" of speaker than anything. Anyone know of any good resources that I could use to study up on speaker design? Even theater design, or theater sound standards, etc?

Thanks!

[choirbass]

Now, I have a question about what you said about high efficiency "equipment". What did you mean by equipment, and integrated amp? This, I wasn't considering. What type of equipment were you thinking of? And by amp noise, what do you mean? Amp noise coming through the speaker? Amp noise coming from inside the speaker? Or are you saying that a highly sensitive speaker would too easily reveal flaws in "lesser" amps, thus requiring me to upgrade to a better amp anyway?

Hopefully I can help here. More specifically, moving up from a JVC 8030-VBK (a typical av receiver as such integrates both the processors and amplifiers in one package). But moving up from that to the preamp/processor & powered amplifier separates provided a noticeably cleaner output (I didn't realize how noisy the internals of the JVC were until I decided to use it first as a preamp to the UPA-7, which did prompt the UMC-1 Pre/pro purchase not long after, but that fixed that dilemma. 'buying cheap will get you just that, a more obvious problem sooner or later'. The internals of that av weren't capable of telling the difference in subtleties or qualities really, even in analog direct. I didn't know that beforehand though. Before it seemed fine.. Ignorance is bliss, lol. (the quality of internal components can definitely be a make or break thing, and can make a huge difference here, as long as your other components follow suit more, again, if something is lower quality internally. It'll show itself more, especially when other equipment is capable of revealing whatever flaws it has.